Ep 4: Breaking Free from Codependency & Low Self-Esteem: an Interview with Caitlin Steitzer

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Wow.

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Can I just say that this week I

had a few moments where I almost

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had people-pleaser slip-ups.

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But I stuck to my guns and I

trudged through that tension.

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I was very proud of myself.

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I don't know how your week

went, that's really good.

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Let's see, did I have any.

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People pleaser moments this past week.

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Not this last week I would say.

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. But don't worry.

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There've been plenty of times

in the past where I have had to

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struggle with people pleasing.

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I hear you.

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Can't wait to talk about.

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Because

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Jenny: so many times we feel like we're

alone in these situations, and then we

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hear what other people have experienced

and we're like, we're really all the same.

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Yeah, we all have similar

human experiences.

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For me, I feel like it's often hard

to identify because it comes up for

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me first as a feeling or an emotion.

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And it will come up as thought.

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Your thoughts aren't often telling you

what's underneath them so it'll just

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be thoughts that are worry about what

the other person is thinking or concern

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or imagining what they're going to

say and not liking what I'm imagining.

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And so it's just thoughts like

that and then a feeling of anxiety.

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And then I realized, wait a minute,

I'm doing a lot of projecting and I'm

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ignoring what I want, because I'm so

nervous about what this other person could

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potentially one day be feeling maybe.

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Ah, yes.

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Getting wrapped up in the stories.

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That's what I call it.

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What story am I telling right now?

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Jenny: We're each the main character

in our own movie and boy, do our

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brains get creative with what the

future dialogues going to look like.

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Oh yeah.

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When it comes to speaking or opinion

or setting a boundary or whatnot.

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Speaking of starring in her own movies.

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Should I introduce.

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Yes.

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My name is Caitlin Steitzer.

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I use she her pronouns.

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Jenny: I'm a licensed

clinical social worker.

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I'm an anti-capitalist business owner.

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I'm also an improv theater

performer and teacher.

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And that's where I met you.

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Yeah, Buffalo Improv House shout out.

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I know.

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Shout out.

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I think you were in like one of

the first classes I taught here.

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I was, I think I was in your first

round of level two when we were

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way back at the dance studio.

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Oh my goodness.

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Studio J shout out to studio J as well.

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Yeah.

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I'm really excited to be here.

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I'm excited to talk about the

phenomenon of people pleasing and

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some of my own experiences with it.

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I'm so happy you're here, too.

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You always have such unique insights

and you come with such a versatile

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background, whether it's from theater

or your professional background

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and all the other stuff in between.

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I can't wait to hear

your perspective on this.

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Right off the bat.

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I noticed you used a unique word.

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You said the phenomenon

of people-pleasing.

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I will love to dive in because I've

never heard someone call it a phenomenon.

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Oh yeah.

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I really liked that.

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Oh my gosh.

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Yeah.

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I wasn't being super thoughtful

with it, so I'm like, oh no.

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Oh, what was I meaning.

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Maybe I was using the word

phenomenon because it can feel

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like this unexplainable thing.

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As a social worker, my job

right now is to be a therapist.

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That's what I do for work.

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My job is to work with people

with like big feelings, so it

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can feel like a phenomenon.

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It can definitely be something that

can come and go without explanation.

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Oh,

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Jenny: This need to, to people please.

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It can just hit you like a wave

and then it dissipates and it goes

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away and you're like, what was that?

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Yeah.

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But it is a thing that I think all

humans have within them to some degree.

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Like a desire to please

others to connect with others.

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I've delved into this in other

people's conversations on this podcast.

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Of, not only the different versions

or different experiences of people

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pleasing because it's so multifaceted.

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But also, the levels or the amount

of people pleasing, because you

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mentioned that everyone has it in them.

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And of course, people want

to take care of one another.

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I think

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Jenny: there's a fine line between

being considerate of others and

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compromise versus people pleasing.

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'

cause I know some people who will of course compromise for

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people in their relationships,

but they're not people pleasing.

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They're not abandoning

themselves in the relationships.

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Yeah, that was one of the

things that I was curious about.

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I wanted to ask you about,

which is what is your working

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definition of people pleaser?

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Cause when you asked me to

come on, I was really excited.

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But it's, it's not a term that I've

directly identified with for myself

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or even one that I was using a lot.

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to me, it is Keep the

peace, avoid conflict.

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I'm mainly trying to manage

your emotional reaction to a

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situation or to what I'm saying.

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I want you to be happy.

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I don't want you to feel uncomfortable.

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I would never want you to feel that

way, so I will do and say whatever I

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can to make you happy while abandoning

my own needs or not even realizing

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that I had needs in the first place.

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That's essentially one of the

foundational definitions of,

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or aspects of people-pleasing.

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People mean it from a good place.

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They don't mean it from a nasty.

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Yeah, they're trying to look

out for your greater good, but

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it's not in the healthiest way.

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They're just doing the way that they

were told or the way that they know.

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Absolutely.

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I think that's a great definition.

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I've also heard the word self silencing.

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Ooh.

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To describe the same thing.

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I resonate with that.

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Yeah.

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Where you're just like, oh, time to

shut up about what I need because

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I think it will be more peaceful

if I don't say anything at all.

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Some people describe that as

codependent or we'll use the term

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codependency when there's like

people pleasing in relationships.

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But I, I think codependency is also

something like a little different.

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.

Would you mind just giving a quick definition of what

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codependency is, because I'm

curious how you described that?

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Yeah, I would describe codependency in

a super similar way to people pleasing.

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There can be a lot of self

silencing or people pleasing, but

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it doesn't necessarily have to be.

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I think,

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Jenny: codependency in a relationship

is when your emotional regulation is

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completely tied to the other person.

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Sometimes that looks like a

huge avoidance of conflict.

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Gotcha.

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Because you're so invested in the other

person being okay and staying with you.

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Codependency can also look like really

big blowout fights or jealousy, but it's

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often having to do with my emotional

regulation is really dependent on this

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other person doing what I want them to

do or feeling how I want them to feel.

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They're not thinking I'm trying to

control this other person's reaction,

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but how it plays out is I really

want this other person to react in

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a very specific way, yeah, exactly.

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And then if they don't, they're like,

don't you see, I set this up perfectly,

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or it's supposed to act this way.

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Exactly.

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Oh codependency though.

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You've got me thinking about past romantic

relationships, especially in my twenties,

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when you know, you're finding your way.

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Yeah, I can see how my people

pleasing fed into being codependent

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now that you described it that way.

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Yeah.

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I also really resonate with you

saying like, All of this stuff, all

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of the issues that come up when

we're wrapped up thinking about other

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people's feelings first and foremost.

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That in and of itself, isn't a bad

thing or a negative thing automatically.

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I'm glad you brought that up because

a lot of times I think people feel

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like oh, I'm a people pleaser.

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Let me shame myself too.

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I can't remember her name,

but there's a therapist.

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I think she was one of the inventors or

like pioneers of a type of couples therapy

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called emotionally- focused therapy.

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I think this was her.

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Yeah.

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And put it in the show notes.

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. I remember.

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She was giving a presentation

about emotionally- focused therapy.

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Her perspective was that people

often overuse the word codependency.

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or we'll use terms like people

pleasing in a derogatory way.

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And she noticed that people would often

have a blanket statement of, oh my God,

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I care too much about their feelings.

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Like I'm bad, like I'm

codependent oh, it's so bad.

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It's bad to need someone so much.

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Ah, yes.

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And her perspective is it's not

bad to need someone so much.

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We all need people.

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We need as human beings, emotional

connection, human connection.

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The same way we need water.

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Air, food, and purpose in life.

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Jenny: We need humans in our lives and

we need close, personal relationships.

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It is wired within us.

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So to say I'm bad because I

feel such a need for my partner.

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That's an oversimplification.

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And that's something I really

subscribe to as well, really noticing

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and recognizing and accepting.

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We are very much a communal species.

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We need other humans.

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I'm glad you brought that up, because

I feel like maybe this is going off on

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a tangent, but sometimes people pleasing

or when you were saying about feeling

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strong emotions for people, like people

will throw the word empath around.

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And I feel a lot of the times that

goes hand in hand, people pleasing

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and empath because you feel so

deeply, you can connect so deeply

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with what someone's going through

and you don't want them to suffer.

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Let me see how I can word

this and let me change this

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situation, so they don't feel bad.

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And I used to shame myself for that.

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I'd feel bad for being an emotional

person and people shame you too.

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They do stop crying.

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Don't do this, don't do that

because it makes them uncomfortable.

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But

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Jenny: I've embraced it

as my superpower now.

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And I think maybe doing that has

also helped me stop people pleasing

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as well, because If I have to take

care of other people's emotions,

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I have to take care of my own too.

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Yes.

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Jenny: Being able to see yourself

as equally worthy of what you

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give others, I think is a really

important part of recovery.

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Do you consider yourself an empath?

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Yeah, but I actually almost

don't like that word anymore.

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Oh my gosh.

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Tell me why you don't like that word.

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Because there's a crossover in the

spiritual community where people

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are like, I'm an empath if I can

back up all the energy and stuff.

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And I understand that, and everyone

can be sensitive to energy.

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Thinking they can't control

these interactions, which if you

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feel that way, that's not true.

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From a spiritual standpoint, there's

grounding clearing protecting your energy.

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There's all different things

you can do with Reiki and stuff.

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And then from a connection

standpoint with people.

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You can use your words, set

your own boundaries.

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If someone keeps treating you a certain

way, tell them how they make you feel.

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Yeah.

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And I'll also say this, right?

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In some ways.

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Totally.

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There's tons of stuff you can

do to control the interaction.

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But also in other ways, the reality

is there's a lot that actually you

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can't do to control the interaction.

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If someone is I'm an empath and

I get so overwhelmed by people's

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emotions or people's conversations.

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Like really being able to accept

yeah, that is life, like you are

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not going to be able to control how

everyone's emotions are in the room.

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I think this for me, this was

a big part of my own people

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pleasing, quote, unquote, whatever

sort of like label works for me.

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Like really accepting oh

yeah I can do what I can do.

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I can do what I can do.

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I can give a hundred percent and that's

going to be 50% of the relationship.

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Can you say that again for

the people in the back?

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Yeah.

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Jenny: You can give a hundred percent.

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And that is 50% of the relationship.

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I think right there is the crux of

people pleasing because they feel

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like they have to compensate and

give the whole a hundred percent.

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Yeah.

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And it's not possible.

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Yeah.

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And it's not possible.

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That's something that I feel

is really helpful to remember

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too, that's a great point.

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And then, so go back to what you

said about situations or interactions

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with people , you can't control them

and they can be intense and such.

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An aspect that's helped me with

people pleasing is to embrace that

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I have strong emotions within me

and I can feel people's energy

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strongly and that's not a bad thing.

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I just have to learn how to manage

it and actually not block it because

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I think a lot of times I would

try to stuff it down or ignore it.

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And now I got to just ride the wave.

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I know.

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There's such a difference between just

existing with a challenging feeling.

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Just like existing in a space angry.

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Sad.

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Scared.

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And there's such a difference between

experiencing a challenging emotion

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expressing that challenging emotion, and

being purposefully cruel and mean, yes.

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But it feels the same.

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I think for a lot of people

who are people pleasers.

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Yeah.

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I don't want to hurt their feelings.

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It's like, why would me just

being angry, hurt someone's

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feelings and there's reasons.

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Yes.

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Yeah, it's so different.

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That's.

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That's making me laugh because I'm taking

this writing course and it's the sales

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writing end of writing for my business.

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In the one part, we, for those

of you not in the business world

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there, CTA is calls to action.

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So that's basically at the end of a

post when you're like DM'ing for the

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link to this event, it's not a big

deal, but we're practicing doing that.

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And someone was struggling and

everyone mostly all women are

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being very passive with their CTAs.

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And I said, I judged it on

my people pleaser scale.

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Jenny: When I write a CTA and

it feels forward and rude,

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I know I'm doing a good job.

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It's really not.

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My people pleaser sides like dang, Jenny,

you can't say that you're being so pushy.

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Oh, my gosh.

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I love that.

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Yeah.

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What's another pushy thing you've said.

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Do you think, or that you can remember.

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I would say I really struggled

at the beginning of my business,

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even asking people if they would

like to book a Reiki session.

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Like even mentioning my offering

and what I'm doing or in

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conversation, even bringing up.

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Hey, I'm having this angel

card workshop on Saturday.

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I love it if you'd attend.

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If you want to using the word,

if is so passive , that's

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what we're learning not to do.

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So I'd say if you want you no

pressure, you don't have to.

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I'm just mentioning it.

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On my tombstone, that was like a cartoon

I saw it was like on the tombstone.

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No worries.

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If not.

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And I was like yeah, I get it relatable.

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Oh yeah.

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It's a biological need to

be accepted by other humans.

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True.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Belonging to the tribe, the community.

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That makes sense.

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Yeah.

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Jenny: It's a survival

drive for us, right?

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Again, we are a communal species.

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We literally could not have

survived without learning how

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to function in communities,

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right?

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For those of us on this planet who

didn't have a platonic ideal of a

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childhood, which wait a minute is like

all of us, many of us have different

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developmental disruptions when we're kids.

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Maybe we didn't get the sense

of community or belonging that

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would have been more ideal.

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So we arrive into adulthood.

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And there's this deep seated

something that doesn't feel good

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when you're afraid you're not

going to be liked by other people.

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And it's really like a survival thing.

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Like

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Jenny: we will die if we're

expelled from the tribe.

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I was thinking about, I was like,

yeah, being kicked from the nest or.

336

: 00:16:57

Yeah.

337

: 00:16:57

Like how other animals will

kick someone out of the herd

338

: 00:17:00

and there you are by yourself.

339

: 00:17:02

You're right.

340

: 00:17:03

Yeah.

341

: 00:17:03

Instinctually.

342

: 00:17:04

We want to be accepted.

343

: 00:17:06

We want to be accepted.

344

: 00:17:07

We want to be liked.

345

: 00:17:08

We want to be loved.

346

: 00:17:09

And then there's all of the

cultural stuff, like for people

347

: 00:17:13

socialized as women, for people

assigned female at birth.

348

: 00:17:18

Oh, my God.

349

: 00:17:19

And then I know like it's a

generalization, but I keep

350

: 00:17:22

saying that it's the American

tradition to be a people pleaser.

351

: 00:17:25

I know there's regions.

352

: 00:17:26

If you're listening and you live in Boston

and New York city or whatever, I get it.

353

: 00:17:29

There's different regions They're

more practiced in setting boundaries.

354

: 00:17:34

In that way.

355

: 00:17:35

But when you're here in Buffalo,

New York, you're definitely

356

: 00:17:37

more on the people-pleaser side.

357

: 00:17:39

Yeah.

358

: 00:17:39

The culture in this region.

359

: 00:17:41

I wonder too.

360

: 00:17:43

That's so interesting to be

like, oh, in New York, they're

361

: 00:17:45

not as like people pleasing.

362

: 00:17:47

Because I wonder, , I don't

know if you can always tell.

363

: 00:17:50

I think there might be people who

externally is like, wow, that person

364

: 00:17:54

is so boundaried, but it doesn't mean

that they're not still feeling or

365

: 00:17:58

engaging in a lot of self silencing.

366

: 00:18:01

Or a lot of codependency

in a relationship.

367

: 00:18:04

That level of people pleasing.

368

: 00:18:06

And I'll say this I think there's

So much classism in New York city.

369

: 00:18:15

I think personally from living in New

York, I think there's large chunks of

370

: 00:18:19

the population, even in places like

that, where it's like, everyone's

371

: 00:18:22

aggressive, everyone's hustling and

bustling, but you might be pushing your

372

: 00:18:25

way past people on the subway, but if

you get to work and your job is oh,

373

: 00:18:31

we're going to look down on you because

you're a maid in this five-star hotel.

374

: 00:18:35

Every part of the job is built around

self silencing and people pleasing.

375

: 00:18:42

Jenny: There's so much messaging that I

think we get in the United States about

376

: 00:18:48

how your money is connected to your worth.

377

: 00:18:51

Yes.

378

: 00:18:52

And how the money you earn allows you

to have needs or to ask for things.

379

: 00:19:00

Upset other people.

380

: 00:19:01

Thank you for that perspective shift.

381

: 00:19:03

It's easy to generalize, right?

382

: 00:19:05

And those of us who have never lived

there that is how it's in New York.

383

: 00:19:09

Or other places.

384

: 00:19:10

Yeah.

385

: 00:19:11

Every.

386

: 00:19:11

Which is true.

387

: 00:19:12

There is a cultural norm of

like, why would I, like, why

388

: 00:19:16

would I not say what I mean.

389

: 00:19:18

Not to say what I mean.

390

: 00:19:19

Like why would I be worried?

391

: 00:19:20

Yeah.

392

: 00:19:21

I have a friend who told me that one of

her proudest moments was waiting for a

393

: 00:19:25

subway , and the doors open and someone

in front of her, just stood there and

394

: 00:19:28

she just said, move and pushed them.

395

: 00:19:31

And it was this huge moment for her.

396

: 00:19:34

Yeah, new Yorkers can

totally be like that.

397

: 00:19:36

No time for politeness, get out of my way.

398

: 00:19:39

But I don't think that means that they

might not have different struggles.

399

: 00:19:44

Because really it comes down to

400

: 00:19:46

Jenny: am I worthy enough to ask

for something that might cause

401

: 00:19:51

someone else some discomfort, maybe.

402

: 00:19:54

Am I worthy enough.

403

: 00:19:56

That is a great point.

404

: 00:19:58

And I just have to

interject with this story.

405

: 00:20:00

Then it just popped into my head.

406

: 00:20:01

You said worthiness and it might

cause someone to have to shift,

407

: 00:20:05

like maybe meaning offering help.

408

: 00:20:07

When I moved to Richmond for my

radio career, I was with a longterm

409

: 00:20:12

boyfriend and I made it like, it was

already on the rocks, but maybe 68.

410

: 00:20:16

Yeah.

411

: 00:20:17

6-8 months into the move.

412

: 00:20:20

Things ended, but me being my stubborn

self and also covert people pleaser,

413

: 00:20:26

I had my little Sunfire and I got

my own apartment within four days of

414

: 00:20:30

us breaking up and blew his mind.

415

: 00:20:32

I took 13 trips with that

sunfire to move all of my shit.

416

: 00:20:36

I refuse to ask for help.

417

: 00:20:38

I just did it myself.

418

: 00:20:40

I'm looking back now.

419

: 00:20:41

I'm like, come on, Jenny, you

could've asked some of your

420

: 00:20:43

friends What are you doing?.

421

: 00:20:46

But I didn't want to inconvenience anyone.

422

: 00:20:48

And plus I was very angry, but.

423

: 00:20:50

Still.

424

: 00:20:51

Oh my gosh.

425

: 00:20:53

Yeah.

426

: 00:20:54

Jenny: When there's a will, there's a way.

427

: 00:20:59

Oh, poor sweet 23 year old Jenny.

428

: 00:21:02

13 trips.

429

: 00:21:05

I say like classism is part of it too.

430

: 00:21:08

I wonder, I don't want to assume.

431

: 00:21:10

But I also bet that like a part of it

was like, I can't afford to hire movers

432

: 00:21:16

or rent a truck oh, a million percent.

433

: 00:21:18

I was oh, sales, assistant,

and radio at the time, I think

434

: 00:21:20

I was making $24,000 a year.

435

: 00:21:23

I was broke.

436

: 00:21:25

Yeah.

437

: 00:21:25

It was definitely a money thing.

438

: 00:21:27

I just want to point out I

think about this all the time.

439

: 00:21:32

. How much money connects to our

mental health and our confidence.

440

: 00:21:39

And the stories we tell ourself, right?

441

: 00:21:43

So it's something like.

442

: 00:21:45

The behavior is I'm going to move.

443

: 00:21:50

But I'm just going to do it all myself.

444

: 00:21:53

And part of it is people pleasing.

445

: 00:21:55

But part of it is also just not

having enough fucking money.

446

: 00:21:59

True.

447

: 00:21:59

Like just not having enough money.

448

: 00:22:02

That can be the root of

so much shame for people.

449

: 00:22:05

And such big feelings of unworthiness.

450

: 00:22:09

It can prompt a behavior that

then becomes a habit because.

451

: 00:22:14

Okay.

452

: 00:22:14

What I'll talk about

like personally, right?

453

: 00:22:17

Is that it can solidify as

a "I don't deserve this.

454

: 00:22:21

I'm a person who just

has to do it myself."

455

: 00:22:26

And I think there can be a lot

of strength in that, but it's

456

: 00:22:29

just that scarcity mindset.

457

: 00:22:32

And then you're an adult and

458

: 00:22:34

Jenny: Maybe you have money, but

you don't want to spend it, right?

459

: 00:22:36

Maybe you have friends, but you

still don't want to ask them.

460

: 00:22:40

I think it's all connected.

461

: 00:22:42

Oh, I agree.

462

: 00:22:42

I'm so glad you brought that up.

463

: 00:22:43

I knew your unique mind would

bring an awesome spin to this.

464

: 00:22:47

I love it so much.

465

: 00:22:49

Yeah.

466

: 00:22:50

I know I'm calling this diary of

recovering people pleaser, but really

467

: 00:22:53

that's just a jumping off point.

468

: 00:22:54

I'm so glad you brought other

things that come into the mix.

469

: 00:22:57

Cause it really does

not live in isolation.

470

: 00:23:00

It's so compounded.

471

: 00:23:01

Especially how you said

the classism and the money.

472

: 00:23:04

To add to that then that kind of

contributes to the familial aspect

473

: 00:23:10

of people pleasing being handed down

because it's the pull yourself up by

474

: 00:23:13

the bootstraps and don't complain.

475

: 00:23:16

Do it on your own and all of that kind

of energy that can be passed down.

476

: 00:23:20

Like in my family, a lot

of that was passed down.

477

: 00:23:23

From generation to generation.

478

: 00:23:24

So then it's own form of people

pleasing to not complain,

479

: 00:23:28

take what is given to you.

480

: 00:23:30

You should be grateful for what you have

whether that's monetary things, tangible

481

: 00:23:35

things, or even having a roof over your

head or a relationship even having human

482

: 00:23:40

around whether or not that's going well.

483

: 00:23:43

You should just be grateful for all that.

484

: 00:23:44

Not everyone has it.

485

: 00:23:45

We worked hard to get all this.

486

: 00:23:47

Yeah.

487

: 00:23:47

And what you have is what you deserve.

488

: 00:23:51

I think is another message in all of that.

489

: 00:23:54

Good point.

490

: 00:23:55

I think, what you have

is what you deserve.

491

: 00:23:57

I think it can be a feeling

a lot of us internalize.

492

: 00:24:00

So many of us, I think, are just taught

493

: 00:24:02

Jenny: What you have shows how

good you are, how hard you worked.

494

: 00:24:07

And that just can affect

us so much mentally.

495

: 00:24:11

I talk about this sometimes because

I'm a social worker, so a lot of people

496

: 00:24:17

are like, oh wow, that's so hard.

497

: 00:24:20

Or oh, you must be so poor.

498

: 00:24:22

And I was, I used to be, I worked

at this awesome nonprofit in

499

: 00:24:26

Brooklyn that I really loved,

but the salary was super low.

500

: 00:24:30

And eventually I realized that

I needed to make a career shift.

501

: 00:24:36

Partially for the money,

but also just, it was time.

502

: 00:24:40

I went into private practice as a

therapist, and I have financial security

503

: 00:24:44

for the first time in my entire life,

really, and it's a substantial shift

504

: 00:24:50

into a different income bracket.

505

: 00:24:52

I am very financially stable at this

point in my life, but I was not less

506

: 00:24:58

worthy of being financially stable

at that other job, if anything,

507

: 00:25:02

I was working longer or harder.

508

: 00:25:05

Yeah.

509

: 00:25:06

Yeah.

510

: 00:25:06

Good points.

511

: 00:25:07

Yes, exactly.

512

: 00:25:08

And that adds into grind

culture, which is, oh, something

513

: 00:25:11

that I'm rally against it's off.

514

: 00:25:14

I can't it's like your self-worth

is based in grind culture.

515

: 00:25:17

Sure.

516

: 00:25:18

Jenny: And then that ties into

people pleasing because you're not

517

: 00:25:21

going to tell your boss no, because

now you're not a team player.

518

: 00:25:24

You better give your all.

519

: 00:25:26

And then some.

520

: 00:25:27

I gave 110%.

521

: 00:25:29

That phrase makes me want to scream.

522

: 00:25:32

Yeah cause it's like setting you

up for something that's impossible.

523

: 00:25:35

Exactly.

524

: 00:25:37

I just had such low self esteem because

I was always struggling with money.

525

: 00:25:41

I had low self esteem and feelings of

unworthiness related to other stuff.

526

: 00:25:46

I had a lot of low like body

image issues stuff growing up.

527

: 00:25:52

I think there's all of these stories that

we tell ourself as to why we would be

528

: 00:25:56

a burden if we were to ask for anything.

529

: 00:25:59

I think a lot of that does

have to do with some, cultural

530

: 00:26:01

narratives, which affect our family.

531

: 00:26:04

You mentioned that you had different

things that you experienced and survived.

532

: 00:26:10

What do you feel was a turning

point that made the switch for

533

: 00:26:14

you because now you have all these

evolved perspectives and thoughts

534

: 00:26:18

and you give all this great advice.

535

: 00:26:20

What was that shift for you?

536

: 00:26:22

Oh my gosh.

537

: 00:26:23

First of all, thank you for

saying my perspective is evolved.

538

: 00:26:26

It is.

539

: 00:26:27

I feel it is.

540

: 00:26:28

I love listening to you talk.

541

: 00:26:29

Oh my gosh.

542

: 00:26:30

Jenny: I love reminding myself

how infinitely dumb I am like in

543

: 00:26:37

how infinitely dumb we all are.

544

: 00:26:40

Like, that feels really good to hear,

but it's just I'm just an idiot guys.

545

: 00:26:43

What all we're all.

546

: 00:26:45

Think of how much knowledge

there is out there, infinite.

547

: 00:26:48

And we don't know it . Infinitely dub?

548

: 00:26:51

No.

549

: 00:26:51

What you mean?

550

: 00:26:53

Evolved in my little world.

551

: 00:26:57

Jenny: I think a real turning

point for me was when I was.

552

: 00:27:03

In my own therapy.

553

: 00:27:05

Before I became a therapist,

when I was a social worker.

554

: 00:27:08

I was really caught up in a lot of shame,

felt so bad that I couldn't save money.

555

: 00:27:14

I had a lot of negative perceptions

about how I looked and had a really

556

: 00:27:21

strong inner critic that would come up

and be very punishing whenever I wasn't.

557

: 00:27:28

Perfect

558

: 00:27:28

are.

559

: 00:27:29

Are you inside of my mind?

560

: 00:27:34

mine must live next door to yours.

561

: 00:27:37

That sounds very familiar.

562

: 00:27:38

Oh my God.

563

: 00:27:39

I know that the inner critics of the

world probably all live and share tips

564

: 00:27:46

for Ooh, here's the best thing we can say.

565

: 00:27:48

Cause it's all the same shit.

566

: 00:27:49

It's all like you're bad.

567

: 00:27:51

Deep down.

568

: 00:27:52

Yeah.

569

: 00:27:53

People really knew you,

they wouldn't like you.

570

: 00:27:56

Exactly.

571

: 00:27:57

I feel like they're all

in the same neighborhood.

572

: 00:27:58

And I personally think my inner

critic is the president of

573

: 00:28:01

the HOA, but I'm just saying.

574

: 00:28:06

The black ruled the black and, I

think I was talking to my therapist

575

: 00:28:11

just like being worried about how I

looked in something or talking about

576

: 00:28:15

how I would want to wear something,

but I couldn't, or I wouldn't.

577

: 00:28:19

And she was just like, oh, why not?

578

: 00:28:21

And I was like What if

people think I look dumb.

579

: 00:28:23

And.

580

: 00:28:24

She was like, yeah.

581

: 00:28:25

What if they think that.

582

: 00:28:27

And I was like, oh, Wait a minute..

583

: 00:28:29

Oh, nothing.

584

: 00:28:30

Nothing will happen to me if I'm

walking down the street and someone

585

: 00:28:35

just thinks like that outfit is bad.

586

: 00:28:38

Yeah.

587

: 00:28:40

Making me think I have my own

reservations, too, about wearing

588

: 00:28:44

certain clothing and such.

589

: 00:28:45

Yeah, but I think just

like really realizing that

590

: 00:28:50

Jenny: Literally someone else's thoughts.

591

: 00:28:53

Don't affect me.

592

: 00:28:54

Can't affect me.

593

: 00:28:56

Can't materially change my life.

594

: 00:28:57

Their actions can, right?

595

: 00:28:59

Yeah.

596

: 00:28:59

Yeah.

597

: 00:29:00

And again, this is why we're

programmed to worry about this.

598

: 00:29:04

This is why it's not bad to

notice that programming, yeah.

599

: 00:29:10

That makes sense.

600

: 00:29:11

It's just recognizing the

reality of the situation.

601

: 00:29:16

Oh, I don't want people

to think bad about me.

602

: 00:29:20

Jenny: Literally.

603

: 00:29:21

Someone's thoughts can't

do anything to you.

604

: 00:29:26

Yes, you're right.

605

: 00:29:27

I want to make a connection to all the

spiritual aspects of that I've heard

606

: 00:29:32

from a lot of teachers that I follow

that they'll say the only reason that

607

: 00:29:35

say someone did criticize your outfit.

608

: 00:29:38

If it affects you, it's because

it resonates with a little bit of

609

: 00:29:42

that energy within you that agrees.

610

: 00:29:45

There's still a little resonance

within you, because think about it.

611

: 00:29:47

If someone came up to me like

I'm wearing all black right now

612

: 00:29:50

and they're like, I hate black.

613

: 00:29:53

I hate that shirt and I'd

be like, I don't cool.

614

: 00:29:57

What color palette do you like?

615

: 00:29:58

I wouldn't care.

616

: 00:30:00

Because it does thing in me.

617

: 00:30:01

That's it's secretly, I hate black and

I thought you were going to say that.

618

: 00:30:05

That sounds silly, if you

came up and I don't know.

619

: 00:30:10

I'm trying to think of another example

of what would make me feel awkward.

620

: 00:30:14

Oh let's get personal.

621

: 00:30:15

If someone was like, Plus size girls

shouldn't be wearing leggings as pants.

622

: 00:30:20

You look fat in that looks disgusting.

623

: 00:30:23

Just gave myself a little bit of stomach

624

: 00:30:26

because a part of me, I can't help it.

625

: 00:30:28

I have a little bit of that

programming inside of me still, even

626

: 00:30:31

though I wear leggings all the time.

627

: 00:30:33

Yeah.

628

: 00:30:34

I still have a little bit of that in me.

629

: 00:30:36

Yeah.

630

: 00:30:36

Yeah.

631

: 00:30:36

It takes time to deprogram

those beliefs..

632

: 00:30:39

Because, talking about someone's body

size and what they're allowed to

633

: 00:30:42

wear or not wear we've gotten those

messages our entire fucking life.

634

: 00:30:47

Exactly.

635

: 00:30:48

Whereas maybe we haven't got the message

of like eww black is terrible, right?

636

: 00:30:53

Yeah.

637

: 00:30:53

So yes, the body size is so much

more likely to be like one of those

638

: 00:30:57

insecurities that gets us worried

about what other people think.

639

: 00:31:02

This is the thing that's so hard

about recovering from people

640

: 00:31:06

pleasing, I think sometimes we want

to tell ourselves, oh, don't worry.

641

: 00:31:10

People aren't going to be judging you.

642

: 00:31:12

They're not going to care.

643

: 00:31:13

No, one's going to say anything mean.

644

: 00:31:16

But that isn't always true.

645

: 00:31:18

You are going to come up against

some people who are like, I don't

646

: 00:31:22

think people in bigger bodies or fat

people should wear leggings as pants.

647

: 00:31:26

Yeah.

648

: 00:31:27

And they'll think that secretly

and they'll say it out loud.

649

: 00:31:29

True.

650

: 00:31:30

I'm curious to get your perspective.

651

: 00:31:32

Two things that came to my mind, as

you were saying, this part of it is

652

: 00:31:35

hard because as a people pleaser,

you're doing the healing real time.

653

: 00:31:38

It's not like you can put yourself in

isolation and practice a few times.

654

: 00:31:42

You just got to dive in

when that shit hits the fan.

655

: 00:31:45

One thing like handling negative

comments and such, I will say when

656

: 00:31:51

I was starting this podcast, I was

like, why am I feeling resistance?

657

: 00:31:54

I was talking it through with my mom.

658

: 00:31:57

And I realized

659

: 00:31:58

Jenny: I have a fear of cyber bullying,

of people putting really nasty

660

: 00:32:05

messages on social media or DM'ing me,

661

: 00:32:08

I hear the horror stories

of what people do.

662

: 00:32:11

And I'm like,

663

: 00:32:11

Jenny: do I have the nervous

system capacity to handle that?

664

: 00:32:15

I was, little scared, cause I

don't have a conflict in my life.

665

: 00:32:18

I don't want to usher that in.

666

: 00:32:20

But what I kept telling myself

was it's going to happen.

667

: 00:32:24

It is inevitable.

668

: 00:32:26

You are going to get nasty DMS.

669

: 00:32:28

You're going to get nasty comments.

670

: 00:32:29

You're going to get nasty reviews.

671

: 00:32:31

That's going to happen and it

release something to me and like

672

: 00:32:33

desensitized now, is that healthy?

673

: 00:32:35

Or am I just beating

myself up in a weird way?

674

: 00:32:37

Oh my gosh.

675

: 00:32:38

Am I being like an angry coach to myself.

676

: 00:32:40

No, not at all.

677

: 00:32:42

Okay.

678

: 00:32:43

And I think there's a lot of nuance here.

679

: 00:32:46

True has, if you were telling yourself

it's gonna happen because you do suck.

680

: 00:32:54

And you deserve it.

681

: 00:32:56

Good point.

682

: 00:32:57

No, I wasn't thinking that way.

683

: 00:32:58

It was a compassionate, like it's

going to happen, so stop worrying.

684

: 00:33:02

I think that is compassionate and

radical acceptance of the world as it is.

685

: 00:33:08

And not the way we want it to be.

686

: 00:33:10

I think that is an

incredibly helpful practice.

687

: 00:33:13

That is a Buddhist practice.

688

: 00:33:15

I am not a Buddhist.

689

: 00:33:17

I have read.

690

: 00:33:21

And I sometimes read articles.

691

: 00:33:25

There are a lot of concepts in sort

of modern day psychotherapy that are

692

: 00:33:30

drawn directly from Buddhism, but.

693

: 00:33:33

Seeing the world as it is

practicing radical acceptance.

694

: 00:33:37

Of course, I don't like the

possibility of getting like really

695

: 00:33:40

nasty DMS, but that is a possibility.

696

: 00:33:44

I'm absolutely accepting that I am

inviting this possibility into my life,

697

: 00:33:49

but it doesn't make it probability

it doesn't make it an inevitability.

698

: 00:33:54

And also.

699

: 00:33:55

What can those thoughts or

comments actually do to me?

700

: 00:34:01

What can they actually do?

701

: 00:34:03

I get to take them down.

702

: 00:34:04

I can control how this is.

703

: 00:34:06

Yes.

704

: 00:34:07

The probability of there being a

media shit show about you and your

705

: 00:34:13

podcast is actually really low.

706

: 00:34:18

Why are you saying people

pleasers aren't going to speak.

707

: 00:34:21

Just kidding.

708

: 00:34:22

I just kidding.

709

: 00:34:24

All you people pleasers

out there- I love ya.

710

: 00:34:26

Yeah, none of, yeah, no one

will ever say anything to you.

711

: 00:34:30

We're just going to celebrate me

and everything's going to be fine.

712

: 00:34:33

No, but it's it's.

713

: 00:34:35

Really

714

: 00:34:35

Jenny: it's a really hard skill to be

like, let's look at the world as it is.

715

: 00:34:38

Really and truly recognize if

your brain is registering the

716

: 00:34:44

possibility as a probability?

717

: 00:34:46

Is your brain telling you

this will have to happen?

718

: 00:34:49

Or is your brain telling

you this is a possibility?

719

: 00:34:51

It's saying it probably will

happen, but that's from a realistic

720

: 00:34:54

point of view because that's

what the world is online today.

721

: 00:34:59

Yeah.

722

: 00:35:00

Oh, that's so funny that you brought

up that it's Buddhism because I don't

723

: 00:35:03

officially call myself a Buddhist,

but I'm basically a Buddhist and

724

: 00:35:06

a little bit from stoicism as well,

which are very similar anyway.

725

: 00:35:09

But I didn't even think about

that being exactly what you just

726

: 00:35:13

said about fully accepting and

surrendering to what is that's so funny.

727

: 00:35:17

Jenny: Sometimes you need

another person to be your mirror.

728

: 00:35:19

Oh my gosh.

729

: 00:35:20

Yeah.

730

: 00:35:21

I love it.

731

: 00:35:21

It's awesome.

732

: 00:35:22

And the reason I also brought

that up is because that same thing

733

: 00:35:25

that I used about my fear for

that applies to people pleasing.

734

: 00:35:28

If you tell someone what they're doing

is making you feel X, Y, Z, or you're set

735

: 00:35:33

a boundary or whatever it is that you're

resisting doing, because it's scary.

736

: 00:35:38

Similar practice.

737

: 00:35:39

Yeah.

738

: 00:35:40

Yeah, okay.

739

: 00:35:41

This is an example.

740

: 00:35:43

Or, you know what, no I'll

use a personal one, right?

741

: 00:35:45

Had a conversation with my mom the

other day where I knew I was going

742

: 00:35:51

to have to just set some boundaries

and just clarify some things.

743

: 00:35:55

Unlike.

744

: 00:35:57

Hey, like here's stuff we can talk about

where we probably won't get into a fight.

745

: 00:36:01

And here's stuff that if we talk

about it, we're like a thousand

746

: 00:36:04

percent going to get into a fight.

747

: 00:36:06

Yeah.

748

: 00:36:07

I felt so nervous and bad and scared

beforehand because I knew that it

749

: 00:36:15

was just going to bring up a lot of

complicated feelings for her and she's

750

: 00:36:18

my mom and she's the best and I love her.

751

: 00:36:21

And I don't want her to feel that way.

752

: 00:36:23

But

753

: 00:36:23

Jenny: the practice of radical

acceptance is she might feel

754

: 00:36:28

all sorts of negative things.

755

: 00:36:30

And I cannot control that.

756

: 00:36:33

And I'm not saying anything mean.

757

: 00:36:36

I am just telling her my feelings

and I'm showing her my uncomfortable

758

: 00:36:43

feelings and she might show

me her uncomfortable feelings.

759

: 00:36:48

I like the way you put that.

760

: 00:36:49

Looking at it as someone showing you

their uncomfortable feelings versus

761

: 00:36:53

they're mad at me or a fight or conflict.

762

: 00:36:55

I like that.

763

: 00:36:56

Yeah, they're showing me

their uncomfortable feelings.

764

: 00:36:58

It's also using different language that

people might not be used to as well.

765

: 00:37:02

So it's throwing people

like a double curve.

766

: 00:37:04

Yeah.

767

: 00:37:04

It's really tough.

768

: 00:37:05

And you're going to get activated,

which is a word that you can use

769

: 00:37:12

interchangeably with triggered.

770

: 00:37:14

I like the word activated a little

bit more because I think being

771

: 00:37:17

triggered often people think of

post-traumatic stress disorder.

772

: 00:37:22

Or trauma responses.

773

: 00:37:24

And I think sometimes we become triggered

because of experiences in our past that

774

: 00:37:29

weren't necessarily traumatic, but they're

still stored in our nervous system and

775

: 00:37:34

in our subconscious and in our brain,

776

: 00:37:37

so you get activated, I like that.

777

: 00:37:39

That's a better word choice.

778

: 00:37:40

Yeah, it doesn't seem

so combative or extreme.

779

: 00:37:43

When you say triggered, I think

it makes the stakes really high.

780

: 00:37:46

Whereas I like activate it's

okay, we can work through

781

: 00:37:49

that together that happens.

782

: 00:37:51

You've given us so many

different things to think about.

783

: 00:37:54

I love the different ways of

speaking about these things because

784

: 00:37:57

Jenny: words have power.

785

: 00:37:59

So if we can reframe things and

tell a different story about what

786

: 00:38:02

we're doing that's one of the

first steps towards recovery.

787

: 00:38:05

Totally I'm also a big believer

in we can get better at everything.

788

: 00:38:11

I don't believe in like the

United States fallacy, if you

789

: 00:38:14

can do whatever you dream of.

790

: 00:38:16

I don't believe that I don't believe

that if I dreamed of becoming an w

791

: 00:38:22

NBA player I could, I am five, four.

792

: 00:38:26

Yes.

793

: 00:38:27

I agree.

794

: 00:38:28

Yes.

795

: 00:38:29

I actually really hate that term.

796

: 00:38:31

Like you can do anything you dream of,

you can do anything you put your mind to.

797

: 00:38:35

Because again

798

: 00:38:36

Jenny: we need to see the world

as it is not how we want it to be.

799

: 00:38:39

There's so many things

outside of our control.

800

: 00:38:43

There's so many things that aren't

fair, but I do really believe that

801

: 00:38:46

we can get better at anything.

802

: 00:38:48

So I'm never going to be a W NBA player,

but I could get better at basketball.

803

: 00:38:52

We want to get better

at not people pleasing.

804

: 00:38:55

You can, but it will feel uncomfortable.

805

: 00:38:58

Jenny: You will get activated.

806

: 00:39:00

If you are purposefully trying

to reprogram your habits and your

807

: 00:39:05

beliefs, it will feel triggering,

activating, uncomfortable.

808

: 00:39:10

You'll be doing all of the right

things, but feeling really bad.

809

: 00:39:13

It's so frustrating.

810

: 00:39:15

It's so frustrating.

811

: 00:39:16

This healing journey.

812

: 00:39:17

It is that's my go-to thing.

813

: 00:39:19

Then I repeat in my mind, my

affirmation is " tolerate the tension".

814

: 00:39:22

I can do that.

815

: 00:39:23

I can do hard things.

816

: 00:39:24

I can tolerate the tension.

817

: 00:39:26

Yeah.

818

: 00:39:26

Cause you've gotten through all the

tension that you've gone through

819

: 00:39:29

prior, they can do it again.

820

: 00:39:32

My favorite affirmation Is

"Those are their feelings.

821

: 00:39:37

What are mine?"

822

: 00:39:38

Ooh, I love that those are their feelings.

823

: 00:39:41

What are mine?

824

: 00:39:42

I was actually going to ask you what

you would put on a bumper sticker.

825

: 00:39:45

Is that what you'd put

on a bumper sticker?

826

: 00:39:46

I, I had something different.

827

: 00:39:48

I had.

828

: 00:39:48

Oh, yeah, please share.

829

: 00:39:49

So I have a few different

possible bumper stickers.

830

: 00:39:51

Maybe we can take a vote.

831

: 00:39:52

Those are their feelings.

832

: 00:39:53

What are mine?

833

: 00:39:54

That's a good one.

834

: 00:39:55

But the one I had come up with is

literally "their thoughts can't hurt you".

835

: 00:39:59

Their thoughts can't hurt you.

836

: 00:40:01

Oh, I love it.

837

: 00:40:04

Oh, that's wonderful.

838

: 00:40:05

And maybe another one is just,

"they're allowed to feel that way".

839

: 00:40:09

Ah, that's been a really helpful

one fair allowed to feel that way.

840

: 00:40:13

Like really, and truly

how uncomfortable is that?

841

: 00:40:18

Like when you think about I'm going

to tell my partner, I'm going to

842

: 00:40:23

tell my parent, I'm going to tell

my friend what I need to say, and

843

: 00:40:27

then , imagine them saying that really

sucks that you said that Caitlin.

844

: 00:40:32

I'm so fucking pissed at you right now.

845

: 00:40:34

Yeah.

846

: 00:40:35

And then just tell yourself,

they're allowed to feel that way.

847

: 00:40:38

It's fair.

848

: 00:40:39

Feel that way.

849

: 00:40:40

Allowed to feel that way they're allowed.

850

: 00:40:42

Jenny: They're allowed to hate.

851

: 00:40:44

I love that.

852

: 00:40:45

And it's their job to process it as

long as you weren't being an asshole,

853

: 00:40:49

yeah.

854

: 00:40:49

Caveat there . Again, like the difference

between whoa, I'm upset when you do this

855

: 00:40:55

or this is something that I want Hey.

856

: 00:40:57

Can you plan the vacation

this year or something?

857

: 00:41:01

Ah, that sucks.

858

: 00:41:03

They're allowed to feel that way.

859

: 00:41:05

I would buy both those bumper stickers.

860

: 00:41:06

Oh my gosh.

861

: 00:41:07

Think they're perfect.

862

: 00:41:08

I love them so much.

863

: 00:41:11

As we're wrapping up

here, any final thoughts.

864

: 00:41:13

And I wanted to ask you if you have

any authors, writers, speakers,

865

: 00:41:19

anyone that you'd recommend that

people read up on or follow or watch?

866

: 00:41:23

Yes.

867

: 00:41:24

And I'll put all this in

the show notes, folks.

868

: 00:41:26

So just enjoy.

869

: 00:41:27

Yay.

870

: 00:41:28

Yeah, just enjoy it.

871

: 00:41:28

Just.

872

: 00:41:29

Andrew, the talking in this.

873

: 00:41:30

Click through like subscribe.

874

: 00:41:33

Oh, thank you for the plug.

875

: 00:41:34

Oh, God, you got to, yeah, I

touched on these two things.

876

: 00:41:39

I really, truly

877

: 00:41:41

If at the beginning, someone

was like, what do you mean?

878

: 00:41:43

You're an anticapitalist business owner.

879

: 00:41:51

Yes.

880

: 00:41:52

Other people.

881

: 00:41:53

That's a lot of words, so yeah.

882

: 00:41:55

What are like the two things

that I sort of want to leave on,?

883

: 00:41:58

I really think there are many

things that can affect our

884

: 00:42:01

confidence and our self-esteem.

885

: 00:42:03

That affects our feeling of worthiness.

886

: 00:42:05

And I feel like that is at the

root of how comfortable we can get

887

: 00:42:09

asking for our needs to be met.

888

: 00:42:12

I'm anti-capitalist because I really

think a system where your worth is

889

: 00:42:17

based on how much money you bring in.

890

: 00:42:20

I think that's bad.

891

: 00:42:21

And how much money you bring

in is based on, again, these

892

: 00:42:24

very arbitrary distinctions.

893

: 00:42:26

You know what I mean?

894

: 00:42:27

Like you were a teacher.

895

: 00:42:29

You should be rich.

896

: 00:42:31

Yes.

897

: 00:42:32

I agree.

898

: 00:42:33

I agree.

899

: 00:42:33

You know the way that we're just

like, oh yeah, they're a doctor.

900

: 00:42:36

They should be rich.

901

: 00:42:36

Like a lawyer, they

should be right to yeah.

902

: 00:42:38

Everyone should have enough.

903

: 00:42:41

But our lack of, and the labels we

attach to certain professions and

904

: 00:42:46

jobs can really make us feel unworthy.

905

: 00:42:48

I think for a lot of women and

surprise, a shit ton of dudes.

906

: 00:42:54

I think our looks and our body size true.

907

: 00:42:57

Yeah.

908

: 00:42:57

Art plays such a deep role, such an

important role in our sense of worthiness.

909

: 00:43:04

I think that affects our people

pleasing and what we feel

910

: 00:43:07

like we're allowed to ask for.

911

: 00:43:10

So I really love a lot of radical

body liberation authors we've talked

912

: 00:43:17

about, "The Body Is Not an Apology".

913

: 00:43:20

Oh, my gosh, that changed my life.

914

: 00:43:22

Sonya, Renee Taylor.

915

: 00:43:23

Yeah.

916

: 00:43:23

That book is incredible.

917

: 00:43:26

I recommend the audio book.

918

: 00:43:27

Cause it's her telling it's

like her talking to you.

919

: 00:43:29

It's like you sitting on

the couch talking with her.

920

: 00:43:31

Oh my God.

921

: 00:43:32

And like the whole thesis of that is

learning to radically love your self.

922

: 00:43:40

Is an affirmation in just

that all life is valuable.

923

: 00:43:45

You learn to love other people, but

you also learn to set boundaries

924

: 00:43:49

for yourself with that practice.

925

: 00:43:50

I think body liberation, health at every

size, intuitive eating, anti diet stuff

926

: 00:43:57

can be really helpful in impacting.

927

: 00:44:00

Something that at least for myself

was a huge part of my people

928

: 00:44:03

pleasing, not feeling worthy.

929

: 00:44:05

And then I think reading critiques of

capitalism and theories around economies.

930

: 00:44:14

There's a YouTube channel

called second chance.

931

: 00:44:17

Oh, okay.

932

: 00:44:17

They had a show that was like, why is it

so hard to imagine life after capitalism?

933

: 00:44:22

Or they had an episode?

934

: 00:44:23

Ooh, I'll have to watch it.

935

: 00:44:24

I liked that one.

936

: 00:44:25

I think

937

: 00:44:26

Jenny: really learning to unlearn

every way you've been taught

938

: 00:44:31

that you're not worthy enough.

939

: 00:44:33

Or it's not okay for you to have

uncomfortable feelings or ugly feelings.

940

: 00:44:37

Any thought or belief that's

ever told you you're less than.

941

: 00:44:43

Usually that comes from a

totally distorted place,

942

: 00:44:47

none of us are less than, I don't know.

943

: 00:44:49

I didn't know which way you were going to

go with what you were going to recommend.

944

: 00:44:52

And I loved that it wasn't the

traditional go read this book on, I

945

: 00:44:56

don't know, like EMDR or something.

946

: 00:44:59

Something like that.

947

: 00:45:02

Some type of therapy book , but you went

macro you went with that's figure out

948

: 00:45:07

why this exists in the first place.

949

: 00:45:09

Why are you programmed to be

this way in the first place?

950

: 00:45:12

I love it.

951

: 00:45:13

I'm so glad you came

to visit and hang out.

952

: 00:45:16

This has been amazing.

953

: 00:45:18

I have a lot to reflect on.

954

: 00:45:19

I have some topics now I can

journal about I'm excited.

955

: 00:45:23

Ooh.

956

: 00:45:23

Oh my gosh.

957

: 00:45:24

Awesome.

958

: 00:45:26

Cool.

959

: 00:45:26

So of course you have your own business.

960

: 00:45:31

So folks want to seek you out for help.

961

: 00:45:34

I will put all of your

contact info in the show notes.

962

: 00:45:37

But is there anything that you want to

talk about just briefly, maybe what

963

: 00:45:40

you focus on, in your therapy practice?

964

: 00:45:43

What topics you might specialize in?

965

: 00:45:45

Yes.

966

: 00:45:46

Yeah.

967

: 00:45:46

If you're interested in getting

on my waiting list to work with

968

: 00:45:50

me as a therapist, you can reach

out Caitlin Steitzer therapy.com.

969

: 00:45:55

This would be a good time to do that

because within this year, early next

970

: 00:45:58

year am expanding to establish a group

practice called rad embodied therapy.

971

: 00:46:04

And I'll also be working with

people in California, so you can

972

: 00:46:08

get in touch with us that way.

973

: 00:46:09

Get in touch with me.

974

: 00:46:11

We're going to be doing some support

groups like self-worth support groups.

975

: 00:46:16

Jenny: Surviving classism or

surviving capitalism support groups

976

: 00:46:20

, body respect, body

liberation, support groups.

977

: 00:46:22

So like we're going to

be doing some offerings.

978

: 00:46:25

You can find me that way.

979

: 00:46:26

And then if you live in Buffalo, New York,

go to Buffalo improv house.com or follow

980

: 00:46:32

Buffalo improv house on Instagram because

I perform there and I teach classes.

981

: 00:46:39

Thank you.

982

: 00:46:40

Oh, my gosh.

983

: 00:46:40

I want to learn to say yes, and to life.

984

: 00:46:45

I didn't even.

985

: 00:46:47

No, I think we need to do a separate

episode on improv and how that

986

: 00:46:52

relates to everything we talked about.

987

: 00:46:54

Thank you so much for having.

988

: 00:46:56

Thanks for joining.

989

: 00:46:57

And if you all have any questions

contact info's in the show notes.

990

: 00:47:02

Please share this with anyone you

think it might resonate with because

991

: 00:47:05

Jenny: you never know how one sentence

or one phrase or one bumper sticker

992

: 00:47:10

statement might flip a switch in someone's

mind and start their healing journey.

993

: 00:47:14

So if you think this might resonate

with someone, please pass it along.

994

: 00:47:18

Thank you so much, Caitlin.

995

: 00:47:21

Thank you, Jenny.

996

: 00:47:22

Have you back soon.

997

: 00:47:23

Bye.