Ep 7: Authenticity, Anxiety Relief, and a Sprinkle of Stoicism: an Interview with Sonia

Speaker: 00:00:00

I'm very grateful that you're here

with me today to talk about sometimes

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some uncomfortable stuff, but I know

that you have a whole treasure trove

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of advice and experience when it comes

to people pleasing, and I can't wait.

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To hear it you have to say.

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Me too.

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Originally, I had this idea.

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I was talking about it and instantly it

was like, I knew you'd be on the show.

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Those of you don't know us, we're friends.

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Oh, which I just realized,

I didn't introduce you.

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Would you like to say who you are?

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My name is Sonia and I'm

a mom, I've got two kids.

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I have four rescue

animals and a big garden.

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And.

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I just do whatever I want most of the time

and I work and try to figure out stuff.

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Jenny turned me on to some romantasy

books, so now I read a lot.

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Yes.

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When you're not doing that, we know

that people pleasing does fall into

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some of your life experiences . I'm

just curious., When I mentioned my

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podcast, what was it that made you decide

that yes, I want to be on that show.

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Yeah.

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Just a little bit of background.

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I used to work at a place a cafe

in Norman, Oklahoma, and we had

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a lot of, cooks and servers or

whatever it was a small place, but.

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I would constantly apologize.

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It was a nonstop thing.

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I say, I'm sorry almost

like a knee jerk reaction.

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It doesn't matter if they're in my way,

I apologize for existing in spaces.

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And I don't know if it's just

like time as a server or.

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I'm not going to go down the path of

casting blame on parents or anything

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like that, but, it's just, you learn

these habits to make yourself small

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in rooms to just try to make sure

that you're not making anybody upset.

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Yeah.

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Or being an inconvenience.

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Yeah.

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Or, making anybody work too hard or

whatever, all of those things to try to.

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Diminish your presence in spaces

to ultimately make yourself more

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comfortable because of, I don't know,

in my case it's probably like perceived

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conflict or, making somebody angry.

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Having had so many different.

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Big T and little T traumas.

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That most people have very similar ones.

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It just takes a lot of effort

to get out of those habits.

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The longer you let them go on without

confronting them the more, a part

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of your identity, it becomes, yeah.

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And, there's nothing wrong with being in a

space and taking up space and saying what

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you want and asking for what you want.

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And if they have a problem with

it, Those are their feelings.

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They're not your feelings and you're not

responsible for everybody's feelings.

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But it feels like I am!

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Yeah.

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That is not your life story to be

responsible for the feelings of every

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other human being that you encounter.

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That's way too narcissistic

and self-involved.

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And.

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As counterintuitive as it sounds, I

feel like a lot of people pleasing

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is, centering yourself in a universe.

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When other people, honestly,

probably don't care.

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Oh, interesting perspective.

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You take on this, this assumption

of importance that you asking

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for what you want is somehow

going to ruin this person's day.

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Oh my God.

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They have to go back to the stock

room to check, to see if there's more

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tofu with the fricking co-op like.

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Oh God, how dare you?

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No, it doesn't matter.

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That's their job.

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If they're having a bad day, that has

nothing to do with you whatsoever.

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Don't be a Dick, Yeah.

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You can be nice and engaged and kind and

and still, be respected and in spaces.

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You've touched on a lot of the major pain

points that people pleasers go through.

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I think sometimes they don't even

realize they're experiencing it

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because it's their day-to-day life.

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And you don't realize that, oh, other

people don't feel this way all the time.

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This anxiety, this stress and

then resentment too, cause usually

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resentment comes into play.

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After you keep people pleasing

and you're giving your all to

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somebody or some situation, and then

eventually it's not reciprocated.

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They're like, what the hell man?

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Personally.

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I don't have so much experience

with the resentment part.

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I think probably because I don't expect

a lot from anybody, and that might

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be , maybe I've given up or whatever.

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I don't know.

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But I do have friends who Go

so far out of their way to help.

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To be the best friend.

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Like capital T B F everything all the

baby showers, all the birthday parties,

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bridesmaid for 15 different people.

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And then when it comes their turn.

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Maybe.

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Their stuff is reciprocated.

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But it's often not appreciated.

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I'm not saying that I've

never felt that way.

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I've had several birthdays

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where I'd gone out of my way to, show up

and be there and do stuff for friends,

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and then I get one message saying that

they can't make it another message saying

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they can't make it another, and before

the end of it, it's the same people that

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always show up are the people there.

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I think that part of that too, shows

you okay, do I really need to have people

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do that much stuff for me all the time.

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No, not really.

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Maybe that's what I was trying to say.

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I don't feel that resentment so much is

because maybe all of this people pleasing-

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it just made me super self-reliant.

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Yeah.

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I get what you mean.

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It's a weird balance too.

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Cause I know my own experience as well.

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When you're trying to heal from this,

and you're so used to being a people

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pleaser, I've tended to swing so far

the other way I don't need anyone.

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Too far, the other way.

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And eventually you have to come

back to center because you can also

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be kind and helpful and that's okay.

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You don't have to cut everyone out.

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Maybe that's the pattern, right?

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You're a people pleaser,

then you feel the resentment.

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Then you cut everybody off because

that's easier than setting boundaries.

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Yes.

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It's easier to just say no and to

withdraw than it is to have frank

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conversations with people that you

are trying to have relationships with.

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I'm married and conversations

with my husband have evolved.

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The more that I've grown as a person,

the more that he's grown as a person.

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It used to be.

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I was just a basket case.

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and just get mad.

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I wouldn't say anything,

and then I would just erupt.

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Same with my kids, my son is

specifically cause he's older.

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I had huge issues with masking how I

was really feeling around my family

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because I didn't want to upset them.

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never dealing with my own

feelings or expressing my needs.

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With my husband, we're able to say,

okay, I can't talk about this right now.

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I'm going to need some time.

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And previous Sonia would

be like, he's mad at me.

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I have to know why.

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Right now you have to tell me

right now, that's not fair.

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So he would set a boundary and I would

not be able to adhere to it because

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him being upset with me meant that I

had done something wrong and I was in

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trouble and I needed to understand.

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Immediately.

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Yeah, because it made the people

pleaser in you very vulnerable

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when really, it probably didn't

have anything to do with you.

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It's most often doesn't.

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I've let go of strangers, acquaintances,

I'm trying to do better with all of that.

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It's my immediate family, my

parents, those are the people

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that if I get even that.

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Whiff that they're upset with me,

everything I noticed goes out the window.

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I get it

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for the most part, I

still try to do better.

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So when that does happen, you

said you're growing and changing.

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What are some habits or tools

that you've put in place to

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process that in a different way?

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So I have really bad anxiety

and that's gotten better too.

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And those are related.

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I'm sleeping more.

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Honestly, having better awareness

of my own emotional state.

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Taking time to take care of myself.

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Honestly, you can't take care of anybody

else's needs until your needs are met.

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For a mom, it's really hard

sometimes to justify or to give

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yourself, an excuse , to do those

things, to take care of yourself.

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Literally women are programmed to be the

caretaker, which is essentially to be a

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people pleaser, to, sacrifice yourself.

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A lot of people say people

pleasing is in a way being a

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martyr , let me sacrifice everything.

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And I don't know if the way that I'm

raising my kids and running my houses is

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the right way, but that's still the case.

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Like I will go out of my way

at any point to do anything for

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anybody that is in this house.

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I do take care of myself better.

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A lot of my previous coping mechanisms

were just so worn through that.

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I don't even lean on them anymore.

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So I have much healthier habits.

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And then, just some thought

exercises and stuff.

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Do you have an example of one that

you would recommend to everyone either

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thought or one of those healthy habits?

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Truthfully, going to the gym.

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Honest to God.

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Like it's okay.

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I'm in a bad mood.

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I need to get to the gym and

kick my own butt for a bit.

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Definitely gotten into,

lifting more weights.

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Awesome feeling.

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Feeling strong capable and knowing

that I'm doing something good.

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It makes me feel good.

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And it makes me feel like

stuff doesn't seem as hard.

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When you do something really

hard first thing in the morning.

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Yeah.

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You're like, oh, okay.

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I did that.

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What is this problem?

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Yeah, good point.

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And it gets your energy moving

right away too, which is awesome

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because a lot of the times I know for

myself, the anxiety is stuck energy.

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And chances are it's because

I've been pushing it down within

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myself and not processing.

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Fully expressing how I feel.

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I still struggle with this- that's why

this is called recovering people pleaser.

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Yeah.

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I think it's just part of being human.

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I don't think that it's something

that Necessarily needs to be fixed.

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Identifying thing and recognizing

that there's something there is

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different than saying this is wrong.

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It's just acknowledging it, which is

something I've learned in therapy too,

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is , when you start going into one

of these anxiety, spirals or panic

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attacks or whatever, you start naming

the feelings that you are having.

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Just identifying.

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"Oh, I'm people pleasing right now".

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"Oh, I have anxiety because I'm worried

that person's going to be upset with me."

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"Oh, I think that they're mad

at me and I don't know why."

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Just naming the thing that

you're feeling it's causing me

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to have an elevated heart rate.

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I feel knots in my stomach.

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My palms are getting sweaty.

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I want to run away.

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And then you're like, oh, Nope.

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That's my sympathetic nervous system.

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That's not me thinking anymore.

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my nervous system has taken over

because there's a fire in the

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room somewhere, this person is a

fire to me, yeah, it's a threat.

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, exactly.

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As soon as you start to name those

things and acknowledge them and

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look at them, then you can go.

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" Nope, not a fire.

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There's the door."

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that's one thing that helps.

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Oh, look for the door.

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Oh, I have never tried that.

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I like that.

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When you start to feel super

panicked, something very deep in your

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lizard brain is I need to run away.

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So just seeing that there's a way out.

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Oh, You calm yourself a little bit.

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Okay.

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I'm going to have to try that because

I do sometimes feel like I want to run

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.

Sonia: Going back to naming the thing, but then not judging it.

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When you start to put labels

on things, I shouldn't do that.

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Oh, shouldn't.

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Oh, I should do better at this.

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All of those things.

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Those are judgements, and

they're self-imposed and it's

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just this bananas cycle and none

of it really means anything.

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I saw something.

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It was a while ago

about being overwhelmed.

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The dishes were in the

sink, but the dishes in the

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dishwasher were full and clean.

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And they didn't have the energy or spoons

to empty the dishwasher and load it.

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But they could just load it again,

with the dishes that were in the

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sink, and run it a second time.

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And that's it.

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That's a simple solution, but it was

something that made them feel bad

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because they weren't able to finish this

task the way that they "should" do it.

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So they just gave themselves to permission

to do it the way that they could.

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Oh, wow.

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And just giving yourself permission

to do it at whatever level you're

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able to do and just be okay with that;

it doesn't have to be a bad thing.

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Wow.

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, that just clicked with me.

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Sometimes I get so overwhelmed or my

anxiety is so high or sometimes my

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brain gets so full that I literally

don't have the mental capacity to handle

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anything else especially in the evening.

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I don't know why I never thought

about running the dishwasher twice.

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Yeah.

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I guess the equivalent of that is

if I put something in the wash

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and I forgot about it overnight,

it's okay to just wash it again.

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Again, it's not yeah.

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But maybe that's inner child thing.

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Like you're bad.

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You're wasting water.

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You're irresponsible.

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You didn't do your chores.

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I'm an adult.

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I can eat my ice cream for breakfast

and I can wash my dishes twice.

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Yup.

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Yup.

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Now you have permission.

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On all fronts.

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I love that.

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Yes.

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We talked about this already,

but what gives you the

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motivation to stay on this path?

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Because sometimes it's like

an old, comfortable shoe.

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It's easier sometimes, for me

at least, to people please.

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What keeps you on your path of not

slipping back into old patterns?

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You don't, you do slip into old patterns.

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Again, it goes back to what's

my baseline, emotional and

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physical state at am I tired?

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Okay.

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Yeah.

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And then all bets are off.

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But, my motivation to do that

as well, I have a daughter.

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And I don't want her to see me

make myself small or apologize

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for other people's behavior.

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Or, for the same thing for my

son, I want him to see this is

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how adult people communicate.

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It's okay to be mad at me.

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That's fine.

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We can talk about it.

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I tell my kids a lot it's okay to be mad.

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It's okay to be angry.

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It's not okay to be mean right now.

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We can talk about this in a different

way, but I will never be upset

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with you for having a feeling and

needing to talk to me about it.

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I think truthfully, not just for my

kids because I'm a happier person

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because of all of this work, but it

definitely doesn't hurt to see

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the lessons that I'm learning

that they're learning them, too.

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We're doing it together type of thing.

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They don't know that.

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That's beautiful, I love this so much.

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I want to zoom in on the concept

of the fear of conflict with

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relation to people pleasing.

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The fact that anger, or even

having a disagreement, does

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not have to mean conflict.

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I think people associate, if I have

any kind of " negative emotion",

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that means it's going to be a fight.

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A zero to a hundred kind of concept and

I've felt the same way for quite a while.

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I think I do stuff down

some of my emotions.

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I actually saw something

online the other day.

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A therapist was saying that what you

call sad is really your anger hidden

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within; you're not sad- you're angry.

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I was like, oh, dang.

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I am angry.

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Finding ways to process that

and express it in healthy ways.

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I know I do stuff my anger down.

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Yeah.

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In a weird way you're angry, but you

still people please cause I guess the

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drive to avoid conflict is stronger

than honoring my own feelings.

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I still don't want to face it,

so I'll just stuff it down and

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put a happy face on even though.

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Yeah.

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Anger, I think is probably the most

difficult emotion for women to express.

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If you think of examples of angry women

that's been portrayed, they're hysterical.

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The word hysterical it goes back

to, it was a woman's condition.

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Oh yeah.

332

: 00:16:05

Yeah.

333

: 00:16:05

Yes.

334

: 00:16:06

And it was because like, it's the

same root word is as hysterectomy

335

: 00:16:10

and all of those things.

336

: 00:16:12

It is directly related to

unreasonable, unconscionably

337

: 00:16:16

uncontrollable women's behavior.

338

: 00:16:20

What is the healthy

display of female anger?

339

: 00:16:23

What does that look like?

340

: 00:16:25

Is it rage?

341

: 00:16:26

Sure.

342

: 00:16:27

I honestly, I'm having

difficulty coming up with.

343

: 00:16:30

I just don't know if I've seen a

lot of examples of a woman being

344

: 00:16:33

angry where it wasn't presented

in that sort of hysterical.

345

: 00:16:36

You have me thinking about that.

346

: 00:16:38

The media and all that of course makes

it seem like women are ridiculous.

347

: 00:16:42

Look at how women are talked about,

even with politics and stuff.

348

: 00:16:47

The scorecards for women

versus men as being acceptable

349

: 00:16:52

is so completely different,

350

: 00:16:53

so why is that?

351

: 00:16:54

Why can't I think of, like men get to go

on and be angry and indignant, and I can

352

: 00:16:59

think of lots of different words and lots

of different times that I've seen a man be

353

: 00:17:04

forceful and adamant and direct with the

way that they're expressing their strong

354

: 00:17:10

feelings; they're being a good leader.

355

: 00:17:12

Yeah.

356

: 00:17:12

But if a woman does that, it has a

completely different connotation.

357

: 00:17:17

All of that stuff is definitely

deeply rooted and I can understand

358

: 00:17:21

why anger is a specifically

difficult thing to express for you.

359

: 00:17:25

And for me, I've just

started saying I'm angry.

360

: 00:17:29

Yeah.

361

: 00:17:30

Yeah.

362

: 00:17:30

I'm angry right now and I need a minute.

363

: 00:17:33

. I have, started primal screaming.

364

: 00:17:36

I don't know if you've done

this, but it is very rewarding.

365

: 00:17:39

I actually got my mom to do it the other

day and then afterwards she busted out

366

: 00:17:42

laughing and then so did I because we

were both doing it in the house and

367

: 00:17:46

the windows were closed because of the

air conditioning and my dad didn't hear

368

: 00:17:49

us, so we did not scream loud enough.

369

: 00:17:51

You are not loud enough.

370

: 00:17:53

It's great though.

371

: 00:17:54

From the gut, you take a deep

breath and you just scream.

372

: 00:17:57

You can scream into a pillow or

you can scream in your car and

373

: 00:18:00

just go park in a parking lot

far, far away from people I have.

374

: 00:18:03

I have done it.

375

: 00:18:04

I have done this.

376

: 00:18:04

I have kids.

377

: 00:18:05

I have closed.

378

: 00:18:07

screamed in the pillow.

379

: 00:18:09

It feels.

380

: 00:18:10

Good.

381

: 00:18:11

Yes.

382

: 00:18:11

Yes, it does.

383

: 00:18:13

I think the equivalent of that

is like good, like put system

384

: 00:18:16

of a down or rage against the

machine on and blast it and sing.

385

: 00:18:19

Yeah.

386

: 00:18:20

Yeah.

387

: 00:18:21

, I think.

388

: 00:18:22

I've read.

389

: 00:18:22

It's if you allow the feeling to

be in your body, it lasts for 40

390

: 00:18:27

seconds or something like that.

391

: 00:18:29

But we resist it, we change it.

392

: 00:18:31

We tell stories about it.

393

: 00:18:32

We make up all of these narratives and

everything to justify or validate or

394

: 00:18:37

condemn all of this crap that goes on.

395

: 00:18:39

And then we have this whole freaking

396

: 00:18:41

Opus.

397

: 00:18:42

About why I was angry.

398

: 00:18:45

An ode to my anger I'm angry right now.

399

: 00:18:49

I'll be fine in a minute.

400

: 00:18:51

Yeah, moving on.

401

: 00:18:53

Even I am experiencing anger

because when we're proclaiming I am,

402

: 00:18:58

it's giving ourselves an identity.

403

: 00:19:00

I always bring up the point- emotion is

E -motion, energy in motion, but we keep

404

: 00:19:06

stopping that stuff up in our system.

405

: 00:19:09

Yeah.

406

: 00:19:11

And then you have GI

issues and wonder why.

407

: 00:19:13

Yes exactly.

408

: 00:19:15

It's what's the darn you can only

take so much Metamucil before you

409

: 00:19:19

have to primal scream, everyone.

410

: 00:19:21

When I was having like really bad anxiety

attacks, I had to go to the doctor.

411

: 00:19:25

I thought there was

something wrong with me.

412

: 00:19:27

I thought I needed tests.

413

: 00:19:29

And he was like, What's your

stress level, like right now.

414

: 00:19:32

It's like bad.

415

: 00:19:34

What is it?

416

: 00:19:35

What is yours?

417

: 00:19:37

Find a healthy way to

deal with your stress.

418

: 00:19:40

Okay.

419

: 00:19:42

No medicine.

420

: 00:19:44

Go for a walk.

421

: 00:19:45

One thing that's helped me lately

too, is that there's only one choice.

422

: 00:19:50

You can't get caught up

in the what ifs of life.

423

: 00:19:53

You make a choice and that's the choice.

424

: 00:19:55

Just make a choice.

425

: 00:19:56

I think that ties into people

pleasing a little bit because we're

426

: 00:19:59

worried what's the right choice to

make this the smoothest encounter.

427

: 00:20:04

And it's no, just make the choice.

428

: 00:20:05

And you can't go and say what if cause you

don't know, you didn't make that choice.

429

: 00:20:09

The other one, it doesn't matter.

430

: 00:20:10

Just do something, take an action.

431

: 00:20:12

There's a stoic.

432

: 00:20:13

I was eventually going to start talking

about stoicism that was waiting for you to

433

: 00:20:18

it was coming.

434

: 00:20:19

I had one opportunity.

435

: 00:20:20

I had let it go, but.

436

: 00:20:22

This one I can't.

437

: 00:20:23

So Marcus Aurelius in Meditations says

do not suffer imagined troubles because

438

: 00:20:29

you suffer twice, , or not at all.

439

: 00:20:32

You can't know the outcome of the

situation and we will suffer in

440

: 00:20:36

our minds about it, endlessly.

441

: 00:20:39

For stuff that hasn't even happened.

442

: 00:20:41

Sometimes I'll catch myself doing

that what if I flip up, up, up thing.

443

: 00:20:44

I'm like, yep.

444

: 00:20:45

Nope.

445

: 00:20:45

That's not a real thing.

446

: 00:20:47

I'm telling stories to myself again.

447

: 00:20:49

. I'm so glad you brought up stories

because that has changed my life

448

: 00:20:51

too, with reading the Four Agreements

talking about how we are each living

449

: 00:20:56

in our own movie and we are the main

character of our own movie, and everyone

450

: 00:20:59

else, are supporting characters.

451

: 00:21:01

And the anger comes from me

wanting you, as my support cast,

452

: 00:21:06

to be acting a certain way.

453

: 00:21:07

That's not how I wrote it in my script.

454

: 00:21:09

What are you doing?

455

: 00:21:10

No.

456

: 00:21:11

And while the other person is actually

the main character of their own movie

457

: 00:21:16

and your supporting cast in their movie.

458

: 00:21:19

Just make a choice and let

the other person actually

459

: 00:21:22

be the other main character.

460

: 00:21:24

And you're just doing a crossover.

461

: 00:21:26

You can't force people to

play to a certain script.

462

: 00:21:29

And when you are people pleasing,

you're trying to play to someone

463

: 00:21:32

else's script instead of your own.

464

: 00:21:34

I think that sometimes it becomes

a little apparent, people can tell

465

: 00:21:39

when people meet someone genuine.

466

: 00:21:42

Sometimes they don't even recognize it.

467

: 00:21:45

So I worked same place I

was talking about before.

468

: 00:21:49

And this guy just really did not like me

or the reason I was talking about that-

469

: 00:21:53

I forgot the reason I was talking

about saying I'm sorry at that

470

: 00:21:56

cafe is those cooks and everybody.

471

: 00:21:58

Some of them got together and they were

like, if you apologize to me anymore,

472

: 00:22:02

every single time that you do it, I'm

donating a dollar to the Republican party.

473

: 00:22:12

That's so much better

than like a swear jar.

474

: 00:22:17

That was their solution.

475

: 00:22:18

It was so bad that they had to

come up with this like whole thing.

476

: 00:22:24

Anyway.

477

: 00:22:25

Same place.

478

: 00:22:27

This guy met me and I would work with him

and I am a very friendly, open, cheerful,

479

: 00:22:32

I try to be kind whatever type person

or at least that's how I see myself.

480

: 00:22:37

And.

481

: 00:22:38

He just didn't like me.

482

: 00:22:40

He didn't like me at all.

483

: 00:22:42

And it took years.

484

: 00:22:44

He hated me.

485

: 00:22:45

Oh God.

486

: 00:22:46

It was so super uncomfortable.

487

: 00:22:48

Other people would notice the people

that come in to eat would notice

488

: 00:22:51

they're like, what is wrong with him?

489

: 00:22:52

He's like staring daggers at you.

490

: 00:22:54

And I'm like, I don't know.

491

: 00:22:56

Oh gosh.

492

: 00:22:56

That's interesting.

493

: 00:22:58

I talked to him a couple of times and

I was like, what is the deal, dude?

494

: 00:23:02

And he's I just don't

like people like you.

495

: 00:23:06

What did I do to you specifically, please.

496

: 00:23:09

People like me.

497

: 00:23:10

What did he mean?

498

: 00:23:11

He meant friendly people.

499

: 00:23:13

Oh, interesting.

500

: 00:23:14

Cause he thought I was

a hundred percent fake.

501

: 00:23:17

We lived in a college town.

502

: 00:23:18

And so he just assumed that I was just

a fake two faced, not nice person.

503

: 00:23:25

And it took a long time, But he

eventually, came around I wore him down.

504

: 00:23:32

Okay, this is reminding

me of golden girls.

505

: 00:23:34

Rose's a coworker.

506

: 00:23:35

She kept bringing us.

507

: 00:23:36

She even brought them with cat.

508

: 00:23:37

Killed his bird.

509

: 00:23:39

Oh, my God.

510

: 00:23:40

Was it, which one's the one with white?

511

: 00:23:42

They all have white here.

512

: 00:23:44

Betty White.

513

: 00:23:45

Yeah.

514

: 00:23:46

Kept baking for this person, brought him

on cat and all these different things.

515

: 00:23:50

Yeah, man.

516

: 00:23:51

Tracks.

517

: 00:23:52

You won though.

518

: 00:23:53

Betty White's it's character

did not win over the coworker.

519

: 00:23:57

But think about how much effort

I spent on worrying about whether

520

: 00:24:00

or not this person liked me.

521

: 00:24:02

Exactly.

522

: 00:24:03

Why in the world was I occupying

my precious brain space and energy

523

: 00:24:09

with trying to convince this person

that I was a decent human being.

524

: 00:24:12

Yeah.

525

: 00:24:13

Heck, did it matter?

526

: 00:24:15

It definitely was a fixture

of my life for a while.

527

: 00:24:20

He was putting you as

the villain in his movie?

528

: 00:24:22

Yep.

529

: 00:24:23

Yeah, I guess that's part

of the healing overall.

530

: 00:24:25

Not even people pleasing, but

just being okay with being the

531

: 00:24:27

villain in someone else's story.

532

: 00:24:29

Yep.

533

: 00:24:29

It's okay.

534

: 00:24:30

To be misunderstood.

535

: 00:24:31

Yeah.

536

: 00:24:31

Oh gosh.

537

: 00:24:32

Because another symptom of people

pleasing is overexplaining yourself.

538

: 00:24:36

Oh, I'm so sorry.

539

: 00:24:37

I didn't mean to have a

blah, blah, blah, blah.

540

: 00:24:39

We're explanations that are not needed

because you're an adult and you pay taxes.

541

: 00:24:44

And then someone told me too,

they're like, would you be

542

: 00:24:46

mad at me if I did that to you?

543

: 00:24:48

Because I canceled because I was tired

or sick or upset or whatever, and

544

: 00:24:51

be like, no, I wouldn't care at all.

545

: 00:24:53

Like you've done this to me.

546

: 00:24:55

You've done this to me.

547

: 00:24:56

Yeah.

548

: 00:24:56

You like had to cancel for some reason.

549

: 00:24:59

And I was like, it's fine.

550

: 00:25:00

There's no problem.

551

: 00:25:01

You're like, all right.

552

: 00:25:04

Yes.

553

: 00:25:07

I think she's lying to me.

554

: 00:25:11

My point is someone might

say, no, it's fine when they

555

: 00:25:15

really don't think it's fine.

556

: 00:25:16

Cause they're not thorough

avoiding the conflict with you.

557

: 00:25:19

And then you're trying to

avoid a conflict with them.

558

: 00:25:21

And then everything implodes because you

just people pleased the people pleaser.

559

: 00:25:24

So everyone's not trusting that other

person is being authentic and someone

560

: 00:25:28

like you actually meaning what you say

and saying what you mean is not the norm.

561

: 00:25:35

Yeah, I wish it was.

562

: 00:25:37

So that was one of my regression moments.

563

: 00:25:40

But I know it's because I've probably

been programmed by many people in my

564

: 00:25:44

life not saying what we really mean.

565

: 00:25:46

I have a friend around here and it

was a text and the text had no

566

: 00:25:52

exclamation points or emojis.

567

: 00:25:54

And I was like, I think she's mad at me.

568

: 00:25:57

This is, there's a fighting words.

569

: 00:25:59

And so I called her and I

was like, did I do something?

570

: 00:26:02

Are you upset with me?

571

: 00:26:03

And she's like, why.

572

: 00:26:04

What are you talking about?

573

: 00:26:06

Because of the text.

574

: 00:26:07

And she's no, you know what, Sonia, if

I'm mad at you, I'm going to tell you.

575

: 00:26:13

If you've upset my

feelings, I'll tell you.

576

: 00:26:15

Let's just have that.

577

: 00:26:17

And that's where we are as

friends, we will be honest with

578

: 00:26:19

each other about our feelings.

579

: 00:26:20

And I was like, Okie doke.

580

: 00:26:22

Let's see how that goes.

581

: 00:26:25

Several years ago.

582

: 00:26:26

It was just very transparent.

583

: 00:26:28

. I would love if our world

could shift to this.

584

: 00:26:30

So you really could just trust in people.

585

: 00:26:32

But I guess we have to model that

behavior for other people, don't we?

586

: 00:26:35

Yeah.

587

: 00:26:35

You just, you, you have

to be the change, right?

588

: 00:26:38

Yes.

589

: 00:26:39

Okay.

590

: 00:26:40

I will tell you if I'm ever mad at you.

591

: 00:26:42

I'll tell you if I'm mad at you today.

592

: 00:26:43

Okay.

593

: 00:26:44

I'll add and I'll believe it.

594

: 00:26:46

I'll trust you.

595

: 00:26:47

I'll trust you

596

: 00:26:48

if you say you're not mad, I promise.

597

: 00:26:50

And that's something I work with my

husband to , because same, he'll

598

: 00:26:53

say I'm not mad and I'm like,

599

: 00:26:55

but your face looks mad.

600

: 00:26:57

Oh yeah.

601

: 00:26:58

I'm not mad at you.

602

: 00:27:00

But you look mad.

603

: 00:27:02

So it's my fault.

604

: 00:27:03

Nope.

605

: 00:27:04

And I can't let it go

sometimes I'm getting better.

606

: 00:27:06

That's just people pleasing because that's

our schema of how we've seen the world

607

: 00:27:11

for so many years that our brains assume

that's how you always interpret that face.

608

: 00:27:16

What is the relationship?

609

: 00:27:18

Are you the oldest daughter?

610

: 00:27:19

Yeah.

611

: 00:27:19

Okay.

612

: 00:27:20

What does that Venn diagram look like?

613

: 00:27:21

People pleasing oldest daughters.

614

: 00:27:23

Is it a circle?

615

: 00:27:24

Yes, it's a circle with a bullseye.

616

: 00:27:27

Extra points if you were

gifted and talented.

617

: 00:27:31

Yeah.

618

: 00:27:35

Just disappointing people left and right.

619

: 00:27:37

Oh, yeah.

620

: 00:27:39

Oh, yeah.

621

: 00:27:40

You should have known better, jenny.

622

: 00:27:41

You should have known better.

623

: 00:27:43

I've never gotten to that situation.

624

: 00:27:44

I know them better.

625

: 00:27:47

I should have

626

: 00:27:48

you're 12.

627

: 00:27:51

That's all right.

628

: 00:27:52

If I hadn't gone through all this,

I wouldn't have had a podcast.

629

: 00:27:55

Yeah.

630

: 00:27:55

Look at that.

631

: 00:27:57

So I wanted to ask you this.

632

: 00:27:59

You mentioned stoicism.

633

: 00:28:01

Are there any specific books,

podcasts, people, places,

634

: 00:28:04

things that you'd recommend for

people who are on their journey.

635

: 00:28:08

Number one top of the list is

Marcus Aurelius "Meditations".

636

: 00:28:13

It's just a transcription.

637

: 00:28:14

There's lots of different versions.

638

: 00:28:16

The fact that so much of how we experience

the world is the same as a whatever

639

: 00:28:24

century Roman emperor was experiencing the

world; it's just mind boggling to think

640

: 00:28:29

about how constant the human condition

is and how irrelevant the majority

641

: 00:28:34

of our little problems are because

642

: 00:28:38

there's nothing that's going to

change about being a human being.

643

: 00:28:41

Being a person is really hard.

644

: 00:28:43

And there's an infinite number

of ways to examine that.

645

: 00:28:47

I think that, we get into these patterns

where we start to tell ourselves

646

: 00:28:51

stories about how difficult our life is.

647

: 00:28:54

Or how, whatever reason we

have that we can accomplish or,

648

: 00:28:58

endure whatever challenge it is.

649

: 00:29:00

They're self-imposed or real or whatever.

650

: 00:29:04

But.

651

: 00:29:05

You just got, you gotta

get over that head block.

652

: 00:29:07

You gotta just either trust yourself

and jump or stop complaining.

653

: 00:29:11

He talks a lot about to himself, so the

meditations were written as journals.

654

: 00:29:15

He never meant to have any of

these published, obviously.

655

: 00:29:18

They were just things that he would

write to himself in the morning.

656

: 00:29:21

One of the books starts, every day,

tell yourself when you wake up, I will

657

: 00:29:25

meet people who are unkind, who are

distrustful, who are unpleasant, and

658

: 00:29:30

just start your day with an awareness

that not everything is going to be

659

: 00:29:34

sunshine and rainbows all the time.

660

: 00:29:36

You're going to experience

things that are difficult.

661

: 00:29:39

So anyway, meditations.

662

: 00:29:41

Another one.

663

: 00:29:41

This is another stoicism book.

664

: 00:29:43

Viktor Frankl man's search for meaning is

a book written by Victor Frankl, who is

665

: 00:29:49

another stoic philosopher, but he wouldn't

call himself that he's a psychologist.

666

: 00:29:53

And he is a Holocaust survivor.

667

: 00:29:55

The majority of the story is

him relaying his experiences

668

: 00:29:59

in one of the Holocaust camps.

669

: 00:30:01

He went in as a psychologists; he had

all of his training, so he was able to

670

: 00:30:06

experience this in a very unique way.

671

: 00:30:08

And the observer comes from this

experience that he had where he

672

: 00:30:13

was able to separate his awareness

of the experiences he was having.

673

: 00:30:19

From the observer who was witnessing it.

674

: 00:30:22

He was able to be objective observing

everything that was going on.

675

: 00:30:26

He was able to experience.

676

: 00:30:28

The horror.

677

: 00:30:30

And see what was happening and

find beautiful things within it.

678

: 00:30:34

Wow.

679

: 00:30:34

It's bananas.

680

: 00:30:35

The second part of the book is how

he translated his experiences into

681

: 00:30:40

kind of refining his practice and

a new modality for psychoanalysis.

682

: 00:30:44

So that's another one.

683

: 00:30:45

Amazing.

684

: 00:30:46

All of these are in the show notes.

685

: 00:30:48

You talked about being the center of

your universe and everyone's a center

686

: 00:30:51

of their own universe and understanding

that it's just a temporary thing.

687

: 00:30:57

We don't get a long time.

688

: 00:30:59

And are you going to spend your

brief life, this gift, worrying about

689

: 00:31:06

what other people think you are the

most important person in your world,

690

: 00:31:09

and you care more about what other

people think than what you think.

691

: 00:31:13

Yeah.

692

: 00:31:13

That's from Marcus Aurelius.

693

: 00:31:15

We're sitting here talking about how

important it is to be understood.

694

: 00:31:18

And how to get over

some of these patterns.

695

: 00:31:22

All we have to do is trust ourselves

and that we're worthy of being

696

: 00:31:25

ourselves authentically, genuinely.

697

: 00:31:28

And if those spaces

accept it it's perfect.

698

: 00:31:31

If they don't, who gives a shit.

699

: 00:31:34

I think this is why I love improv so

much because it's literally what you

700

: 00:31:37

just described - embrace the suck.

701

: 00:31:39

Be present in the moment.

702

: 00:31:41

Trust what comes out of your mouth,

support the person on stage, but also

703

: 00:31:45

, you have to take up space on stage.

704

: 00:31:48

You don't prepare ahead of time.

705

: 00:31:50

You just think in the moment, which

for me is also sometimes a spiritual

706

: 00:31:54

experience because I'll connect to my

highest self and I will let it flow.

707

: 00:31:58

And I've actually healed a

lot through practicing improv.

708

: 00:32:02

And how you were saying,

just trust yourself.

709

: 00:32:05

You have to fully trust yourself

when you're doing improv and you

710

: 00:32:08

also have to embrace the suck.

711

: 00:32:09

Cause sometimes your brain will

just say random stuff and that's

712

: 00:32:11

what makes improv funny, but you

also have to embrace the suck.

713

: 00:32:14

If you say something, what someone

might say, oh, that's weird.

714

: 00:32:17

Or you start criticizing yourself.

715

: 00:32:19

Oh, I could have said something better.

716

: 00:32:20

No.

717

: 00:32:20

You have to be fully

present and just embrace it.

718

: 00:32:23

Make the choice and move on.

719

: 00:32:25

If we could live our everyday

like that, not just on stage.

720

: 00:32:29

It's essentially what you're saying.

721

: 00:32:30

It's very freeing.

722

: 00:32:31

It is.

723

: 00:32:33

Not to say that you can't be diplomatic

or you can't construct a thought or

724

: 00:32:36

prepare for a speech or an interview

or whatever, but, you bring yourself to

725

: 00:32:42

those spaces, and if you are in a place

where you do trust yourself, because you

726

: 00:32:47

know that there's nothing wrong with you.

727

: 00:32:49

And you are valuable and worthy.

728

: 00:32:52

Then why would you treat.

729

: 00:32:54

Your most treasured person in the world.

730

: 00:32:57

I marched my daughter around

she's the princess of the world.

731

: 00:33:00

I never thought that I would do that

because I really don't like that

732

: 00:33:04

story about you are so important.

733

: 00:33:07

But I want her to feel

powerful in that way.

734

: 00:33:11

I don't want her to feel ashamed

about being a big, bright light.

735

: 00:33:15

I want her to be that.

736

: 00:33:18

First of all.

737

: 00:33:19

That's amazing as a parent,

I love that so much.

738

: 00:33:21

I love hearing the stories of your

parenting because I think it's beautiful.

739

: 00:33:24

I wanted to add in people

740

: 00:33:25

sometimes when they're dealing with new

habits, especially with emotions and

741

: 00:33:29

stuff, they tend to go all or nothing.

742

: 00:33:31

And I've also heard people talking

about the Western culture of

743

: 00:33:34

being extreme individualism.

744

: 00:33:36

Whereas, I think what you're saying

is if you find the bright light

745

: 00:33:39

and you find your worthiness within

yourself, What you find within is

746

: 00:33:43

what you'll find outside of you.

747

: 00:33:46

Does it mean isolating herself

and being like, fuck the system.

748

: 00:33:50

It means.

749

: 00:33:51

I'm finding my true essence of

my true self and honoring my mind

750

: 00:33:55

body spirit connection, and that

I am an expression of spirit.

751

: 00:33:59

And then you'll see that within

everyone else that you meet,

752

: 00:34:02

that's one of the tenants of

what we talk about with Reiki is.

753

: 00:34:06

What I find within

myself, I find in others.

754

: 00:34:08

Yeah, absolutely.

755

: 00:34:09

If you compare.

756

: 00:34:10

, I'm walking around thinking

everyone is judging me,

757

: 00:34:14

worrying about taking up space.

758

: 00:34:16

What kind of world is that?

759

: 00:34:17

That you've put yourself in?

760

: 00:34:18

You've made this hazard;

you've made a scary place.

761

: 00:34:23

But if you don't feel there's

anything wrong or shameful about

762

: 00:34:26

who you are, how you show up.

763

: 00:34:29

And everyone, it's the

assumption of good intent, right?

764

: 00:34:32

You assume that people are going

to treat you kindly because

765

: 00:34:35

you will treat them kindly.

766

: 00:34:37

If they have something they

need from you, then you are

767

: 00:34:39

going to be open and receptive.

768

: 00:34:40

Yeah.

769

: 00:34:41

And so that's the way that

I experienced the world.

770

: 00:34:45

Driving as hard.

771

: 00:34:46

I don't know.

772

: 00:34:49

spiritual experience.

773

: 00:34:52

The highway, man is sometimes.

774

: 00:34:54

But why didn't you get over?

775

: 00:34:57

Oh, you're nicer.

776

: 00:35:00

I don't say that.

777

: 00:35:01

I say mother fucker.

778

: 00:35:04

Get the hell out of my way.

779

: 00:35:06

Are you in the left lane?

780

: 00:35:07

That's usually how I judge it's

a road rage scale of like how

781

: 00:35:10

disconnected I am from my, yup.

782

: 00:35:12

My light.

783

: 00:35:13

I'll catch myself and I'm like, Ooh,

somebody needs to meditate today.

784

: 00:35:17

You know this is just a random, , my

inside voice for whenever I'm driving.

785

: 00:35:21

I turned into Ron Swanson

from parks and recreation.

786

: 00:35:26

I know more than you.

787

: 00:35:28

Different topic, I had the impression

that grownups knew who they were.

788

: 00:35:33

However, I was growing up.

789

: 00:35:34

And that is a lie.

790

: 00:35:38

And I think that it's stupid and

not fair to think that growth

791

: 00:35:43

or growing up has an end point.

792

: 00:35:47

It is a constant process, and the only

people I know who quit growing are

793

: 00:35:52

people who have fixed patterns, fixed

mindsets, don't accept new information.

794

: 00:35:58

Aren't curious, whatever

do you, that's fine.

795

: 00:36:01

Yeah.

796

: 00:36:01

But don't come from me

because I want to do more.

797

: 00:36:03

Exactly.

798

: 00:36:04

Like I'm not done.

799

: 00:36:05

And being comfortable that when you

change, things around, you will change.

800

: 00:36:10

One thing having moved home, some

family and some friends still had this

801

: 00:36:14

view of me from my mid twenties when

I was home for my master's degree.

802

: 00:36:19

I was away for almost a decade and I

come home and I'm almost 40 and they're

803

: 00:36:23

looking at me the same way I am.

804

: 00:36:24

I am not the in person, so you have

to prepare and be okay with maybe

805

: 00:36:29

relationship dynamics changing or some

people leaving your life, or maybe

806

: 00:36:35

improved relationships with other people

that you didn't click with before.

807

: 00:36:39

You have to be okay with that.

808

: 00:36:40

Yeah.

809

: 00:36:41

Because what does it say?

810

: 00:36:43

You've grown.

811

: 00:36:44

Yeah.

812

: 00:36:44

Yeah.

813

: 00:36:44

We're supposed to, Exactly.

814

: 00:36:47

I'm wrapping up all of my episodes

by asking my guest- if you're to

815

: 00:36:52

create a bumper sticker with a

piece of life advice on it, what

816

: 00:36:56

would you put on the bumper sticker?

817

: 00:36:58

When I was thinking about this,

originally, the thing that popped into

818

: 00:37:01

my head is do not suffer, imagined

troubles, which is like super long.

819

: 00:37:05

That's perfect.

820

: 00:37:06

But, it would probably be Memento

Mori, which is trite , but it's true.

821

: 00:37:09

That means.

822

: 00:37:11

Remember death.

823

: 00:37:12

. This is it.

824

: 00:37:13

This is it.

825

: 00:37:14

Again in the meditation, they talk about,

imagine that you are on your death bed.

826

: 00:37:18

And you have to sit there that this

is a thought pattern, a process that

827

: 00:37:22

you can go through into meditation,

to imagine yourself on your death

828

: 00:37:25

bed, looking back on your life.

829

: 00:37:28

I'm thinking about the things

that mattered and what didn't.

830

: 00:37:32

Yeah, because I swear to God, it's

not going to be whether or not you

831

: 00:37:35

pissed off someone at Trader Joe's.

832

: 00:37:37

That's not going to be one of the

things that you're going to think about.

833

: 00:37:39

And so focusing all of your

efforts to the best of your ability

834

: 00:37:44

on the things that you will be

thinking of when you are dying.

835

: 00:37:48

That's amazing.

836

: 00:37:50

Memento Mori.

837

: 00:37:51

Yeah.

838

: 00:37:52

Now I'm going to have to contemplate it.

839

: 00:37:53

Sometimes.

840

: 00:37:54

I think to myself, if I were to

die today, would I be at peace and

841

: 00:37:58

happy with how I spent my last day.

842

: 00:38:01

And when I'm people pleasing?

843

: 00:38:02

No, I would not be.

844

: 00:38:04

Yeah.

845

: 00:38:04

Cause that's not being authentic.

846

: 00:38:06

Yeah.

847

: 00:38:07

Thank you so much for joining.

848

: 00:38:09

I enjoyed this thoroughly.

849

: 00:38:10

I hope you'll be back.

850

: 00:38:12

Everyone, all the books and all the

good stuff are in the show notes.

851

: 00:38:16

Hopefully you can take away at

least one thing whether it's

852

: 00:38:19

a tool, a quote, a concept.

853

: 00:38:22

Hopefully something resonated with you.

854

: 00:38:24

And just start small, just

start with that one thing.

855

: 00:38:27

Try implementing it into your life.

856

: 00:38:29

Just observe and see what changes for you.

857

: 00:38:31

Love it.

858

: 00:38:32

Thank you so much.

859

: 00:38:33

Thank you.