Ep. 35: Finding Work - Life Balance through the Power of Boundaries: an Interview with Jeff Jolton

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This is a really beautiful

gray day here in Buffalo.

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Gosh, I know here we are having

a podcast discussion, so that

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hopefully will brighten our day.

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I think so.

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Are you on vacation right now?

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I just started my vacation.

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I'm not one of these people that

can just be in my pajamas all day.

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I just, no, no.

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get up early.

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I'll wake up at 5 30, 6 o'clock

and I'll get up, get my coffee.

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I love that time of day to do my

puzzles, to read, to just chill

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and there's no interruptions in

the world at that time of the day.

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And so I really just loved

that, but then I do feel like I

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need to get out and get going.

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since you're on vacation.

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Well, why don't you tell us about

what you're on vacation from?

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Tell us a little bit about yourself.

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Sure.

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I am Jeff Jolton.

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I am a consultant for a

firm called Spencer Stewart.

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I actually am the leader of

our data in insights practice.

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I have been a industrial organizational

psychologist my entire life,

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so that's why I have my PhD in.

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Amazing.

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Yeah.

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And what that means is I work

with organizations and help

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them be better organization.

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So a lot of my work has been with leaders

helping them understand their employees,

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understand their work experiences.

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How they can make them better.

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So a lot of what have done in my

life is obviously as a consultant.

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You're kind of at the Beck and call

and the demands of your clients.

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That is an did feed in very nicely

into my people pleasing behavior.

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Yes.

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Yes.

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It reinforced that because imagine

that you're basically being rewarded

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as a consultant for always being there,

whatever you need, whatever you want.

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Any time of day, night.

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I never said no, I didn't

know how to say no.

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I didn't understand boundaries.

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So as a consultant, as I became

more and more in demand and

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proficient, and capable professional.

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That sort of amped up the

people pleasing side of me.

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Which I think was always there.

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I looked back in my life, I can

see that I had those tendencies.

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I wanted to fit in, I wanted to be liked.

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I was kind of a shy kid.

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I'm hearing impaired, so I was always

a little bit outside the group.

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You feel other right.

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And so.

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You feel like you have to overcompensate

for that, and I certainly felt that way.

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That played a big part of thinking, just

sort of developing that sense and me.

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And then a jet got

reinforced professionally.

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Right.

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And I think you climb up the ladder

because Hey, this guy gets things done.

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This guy is always, oh, you

can all eat depend on Joffe

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he's already going to do it.

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Ah, you can always depend on blank.

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Ah, Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's the so key phrase there.

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Yeah.

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So, so good chunk on my professional life

with very much driven, very long hours.

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And I loved the work I did.

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, but.

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There was a lot of muddiness in, you know

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My roles because I'm also married

and I have two kids they're grown

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now, but you know, we were raising two

kids So how you put all those things

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together . So not only was I trying to

please people on my role as a consultant.

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Like, how am I going to be a

good father or can it be done?

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Perfect.

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Yeah.

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To be the perfect husband.

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So a lot of my people pleasing, I think

was in pursuit of this perfection.

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I would thinking a lot.

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And I talked to my wife about

this a little bit in terms

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of people pleasing and men.

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Yes.

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I was hoping to dive into this

with you, because I feel like

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the dynamic is a little bit

different with men versus women.

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Yeah.

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And I think that some of it may

be the pursuit of perfection.

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I think you, you see it with, I think

there is a lack of role, clarity.

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Men are being expected to play a role.

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So I will play this role.

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Even though it's not

really what I want to do.

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The expectation and you.

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Do you see it in tV movies and things.

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At the time, right.

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I, , I want to be in the show, but I

have to be on the basketball team, right.

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It, my dad wants me to be the jock.

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I want to be the.

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Oh, yeah, like the star the musical.

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Right.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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That's where the thing kind of.

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I think for man kind of play out if.

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expectations for roles and they

feel like they have to be perfect.

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The perfect dad, perfect

husband, interesting.

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And their personal needs get

supplanted because like any people

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pleaser, where are they doing?

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They're focusing on meeting

the needs of everyone else.

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Yeah, but we don't.

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Express the emotional

side of it the same way.

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It's not seen as an empathy.

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It's not socialites the same way.

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I think for women.

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I think it may get rewarded in a different

way than for women, to be honest.

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Interesting.

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I mean, probably way we're thinking

about coming here is yeah, man

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can be people pleasers I know I'm

one and I know my brother has one.

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Oh, interesting.

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Yeah.

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I'm pretty sure my father was one even

though he may not have appeared as one.

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I looked back it's like, we, I

think he was a people pleaser too.

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So.

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It just because of that perfection,

like always wanting to just make sure

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everyone else we're taking care of.

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Everyone else's needs were

being met before your own.

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There's so much to dive into within this.

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This is a great overview.

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And now I can't wait to dive

into the nitty gritty and hear

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your perspective on the stuff.

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I want to go to the part where

you said that it's socialized

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different for men versus women.

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What do you mean exactly?

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What would you say that the societal

pressure or norm or expectation

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is for men that is really a

covert form of people pleasing.

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I'm no sociologist, so I won't pretend

to be, but if I were to try to articulate

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that, I would say that I think women

are socialized to potentially be

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pleasing others, like, be a good girl,

you know, help you help out be a helper.

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Be supportive.

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Yeah, I think.

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Hopefully that dynamic is changing,

but certainly when I was growing up,

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those were things that I would hear

and I think men are socialized more to

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play a role, you know, you're going to.

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This person is going to play this role.

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You're going to be tough.

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You're going to be.

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Uh, jock, you're going to be popular

you're going to be class president and,

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you know, whatever those expectations are.

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They're less about serving others.

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But there's still an expectation.

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Pressure they're being put on

people about what other want of you?

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Um, that aren't necessarily taking into

consideration, what that individual.wants.

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So do you want to be a jock?

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Like I know friends in high school that

did not want to be on the soccer team,

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did not want to be on the swim team.

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Yeah, dad, wasn't going

to let them not do that.

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I was an athlete.

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You're going to be an athlete.

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And so they just sucked it

up and that's what they did.

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And it doesn't mean that they

were forever people pleasers.

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But I think enough of that and

enough man become conditioned.

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It's like, oh, I always need to

do what other people expect of me

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rather than listen to what I need.

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Oh, interesting.

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I see what you're saying.

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That would make sense.

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So yeah, it's a different

definition of people-pleasing.

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I get what you're saying.

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It's like the female version

it's like the nurturing, the

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helping the rescuer, if you will.

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And then the male is more of you're

supposed to in a way, submit and conform

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to certain societal roles . So it

kind of sounds like it's submitting to

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pressures from a parent or a boss so

an authority figure is that kind of?

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A parent boss society,

whatever it might be.

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And.

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I think the commonality is in both

cases, you're putting your own needs

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aside to meet the needs of other people.

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And you're allowing your own

boundaries to be Violated.

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Yeah, because they're less important

than the needs of other people.

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And so I think that's where

it become the common ground.

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And it's not to say that there aren't men

that are empathic or caring and that's

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what makes them people pleasers that way.

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I just think that that's probably

from a sociological perspective, maybe

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what makes it a little bit different?

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Or I'm just, you know, this is

me, this this is my freaky way.

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A people pleaser.

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Every definition you get on

this podcast is different.

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It.

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That's what I absolutely love.

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This makes a lot of sense.

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And also.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a

man, but the whole socialized pressure

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of not being emotionally expressive.

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Ah, that feeds into people pleasing

too, because people pleasing means self

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silencing, I think it's episode for

Caitlin talks about self silencing where

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you don't speak up for yourself, but

that's also not expressing your emotions.

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Not telling people "you did this

and it makes me feel this way".

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Even if it means you're telling me to

try out for the seam and do the sport,

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and that feels like it's suffocating

me and killing me on the inside, dad.

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I don't want to do this.

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Let me follow my passion.

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Yeah.

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I mean, that is the a really

common kind of storyline about

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being raised male, right?

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You can express your feelings.

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Yeah, that self silencing

Not being able to.

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Uh, express your true

feeling about something.

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I think in the male culture also,

I think that's where there that

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peer pressure comes in cause you

don't want necessarily to go along.

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Oh, yeah.

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It's like, you feel you have to right

because you just can't get caught up in.

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And certainly there's peer pressure on

every, every gender and every direction.

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Yeah.

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True.

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True.

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Um, but that is as I said that sacrifice.

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I think that really makes people

pleasing the common ground and in both,

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you don't really express yourself.

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And you're kind of putting yourself aside.

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Do you have a specific story that

really stands out in your mind?

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When people pleasing reached

its height and your life.

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A turning point moment perhaps.

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probably the moment when I started

realizing I was a people pleaser . I

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was heading a global consulting team.

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I'm doing a good job.

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I was working hard.

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But it was having a real negative effect

on my family working really long hours.

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I'm trying to be a good dad.

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Like, I'm doing this for us.

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And those things weren't connecting and

at the same time I had people at work that

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were saying you need the same no more.

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Oh, interesting.

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Your coworkers picked up on it.

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Like you should say no more.

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And I remember my wife.

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I was at the point where I was

at risk of losing my family.

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I mean, it was getting

to that level and you.

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She was like,

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He just needs that boundaries

and I was like, how, like, I

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don't even know what that means.

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My brain couldn't even get around.

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What, what do you mean by that?

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Yeah, I can relate, like, how do I

tell an executive I'm not going to fly

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out Sunday to be there Monday morning.

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Like.

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Yeah.

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Couldn't think about that.

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And yes, I had coworkers who

would say, you should say no more.

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But then they would also say, but not

to me, not to mine after my request.

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Right?

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So you were getting mixed messages there.

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But obviously there were red

flags that were coming up, like,

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okay, something's not right.

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My priorities were off and my wife was

like, what's really important to you.

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In addition to what this boundary

thing you're talking about.

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My wife is a clinical psychologist.

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Oh, she is.

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Yeah.

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Oh, I didn't know that about it.

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It's like she understood

a boundary it wasn't here.

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Yeah, she's great with boundaries

and I'm like, I don't know what the

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heck you're talking about, lady.

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And.

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The other thing is just like, you need to

figure out what you want, what YOU want.

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My mind.

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Jenny was totally blank.

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I, I believe I had no idea why.

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I in my forties.

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And , I had not thought about

my own personal needs or wants.

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Wow.

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It was a blank.

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And so that was a real wake up call.

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I bet.

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So that was probably the beginning

of my journey to realize If I

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want to be a better father and I

want to be a better professional,

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yeah, I'm gonna need to

figure some of this out.

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And one of the first things I kind of

learned through all that is there was a

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feeling when I was asked to do something.

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You're sometimes you get that feeling.

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And if someone asks you

something like this,

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Yes.

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For me, my stomach cramps up a little bit.

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Like your stomach cramp.

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Like a buzzer in your head.

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Yes.

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And I realize.

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That the boundary being broken.

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Ah, and once I realized that the

boundary, then there was like, oh,

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Can you get this report to me tonight

and it's six o'clock no like, nah.

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What are you asking me?

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It's it's six o'clock.

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Yeah.

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Like, no, I have plans.

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You can't come to me at six o'clock

to get you something tonight.

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It's just not fair.

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It's not realistic.

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So once I started to understand oh,

that's violating my boundaries, I

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could start listening to it more.

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I still sucked at listening

to it all the time.

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Yeah.

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I was at least trying to

be aware of what that was.

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And then once I was aware of that,

then I started to understand what

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my wants were, and I could start

listening to, well, what is it you want?

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That was a bit of

because I'd like to work.

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I was doing right.

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So.

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Yeah, that's all, it's hard when that's

hard to tease out what was being put

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upon me versus things I enjoy doing.

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And so, that allowed me to

start to realize, like, I'm

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a executive level consultant

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now I don't need to be doing this stuff

that the junior people can do now.

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Like, oh yeah, you.

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And I can start pushing this

off . So I started figuring that

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out and figuring out what I liked

to do by wanting to do at home.

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I want to do with my life.

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And it was about a 10 year journey.

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I was just going to ask, how

long did that process take?

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Took a while.

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Understandable, in therapy it took time,

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plus I want to add in too, usually the

workplace culture adds into that, like.

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In a way, shame on the higher ups for

creating that workplace culture.

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Well, it wasn't boundaries.

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I feel like that's so common.

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One of the things that my wife said at

the time, and I really took the heart.

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Was you know, I was

working ridiculous hours.

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Yeah.

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And she said no one at this

company is going to tell you

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you're working too many hours.

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It's on you.

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It's on you to set the boundaries.

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That's true.

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And.

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Somewhat more progressive

companies now will say, go home.

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And one time I started.

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Yeah, I stopped answering

email over the weekend.

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No one cared.

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Ah, no one noticed so that's when

it's like, oh, it is me . So I

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can relax a little bit on that.

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When I changed companies after that,

there was a much more intense culture

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that definitely fed into that frenzy.

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And.

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Kind of find myself back in

another very intense culture.

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Oh boy.

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And in that environment, when I was

leading other people, I, I would

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look at, Hey, I, you know, I, you

sent an email at two in the morning.

341

: 00:17:09

What's going on?

342

: 00:17:10

And I've said, Hey, I think

you're working too many hours.

343

: 00:17:12

Like I was trying to be that.

344

: 00:17:14

Yeah, that's amazing.

345

: 00:17:16

I had people who were trying

to exploited people who.

346

: 00:17:20

There are people who I think

seek out people pleasers

347

: 00:17:24

and take advantage of them.

348

: 00:17:26

And Especially in the corporate

world, I mean, oh yeah.

349

: 00:17:29

We're great worker.

350

: 00:17:31

We get things done and

they get the credit.

351

: 00:17:33

Right.

352

: 00:17:34

It stems from childhood

when we did group work and.

353

: 00:17:37

Yeah.

354

: 00:17:38

People pleasers are the ones just doing it

cause they didn't want to get a bad grade.

355

: 00:17:42

Everyone's likely.

356

: 00:17:43

How to work the system at eight years old.

357

: 00:17:46

Exactly.

358

: 00:17:47

Another pivotal moment for me is,

and I think people pleasers go around

359

: 00:17:53

wearing good intention glasses.

360

: 00:17:56

Meaning.

361

: 00:17:57

That everyone has good intentions.

362

: 00:18:02

So they may not mean to make things

hard on me or, bring this in at the

363

: 00:18:08

last minute or being nasty about it.

364

: 00:18:11

And so we forgive them too

easily for their ridiculousness.

365

: 00:18:16

Yes.

366

: 00:18:18

In reality, once I realized

I'm wearing the glasses all

367

: 00:18:22

the time and I took them off.

368

: 00:18:25

Then I saw like, Ooh, this person

is like projecting all their

369

: 00:18:30

anxiety on me, all the crap on me.

370

: 00:18:32

I don't want that anymore.

371

: 00:18:35

One of the things I absolutely

hate and I hear it all the time.

372

: 00:18:39

Hate the phrase.

373

: 00:18:41

What is this like, um,

assume positive intent.

374

: 00:18:46

Yes.

375

: 00:18:47

Yes, absolutely.

376

: 00:18:50

And you hear it from leader all the

time, like, oh, assume positive intent.

377

: 00:18:55

And I hate that because it putting

the burden of the behavior of

378

: 00:19:01

everything on the receiver.

379

: 00:19:04

No, one's perfect.

380

: 00:19:05

I understand that you

can have good intention.

381

: 00:19:09

Screw up and people are going to misread.

382

: 00:19:11

I get that.

383

: 00:19:12

Yeah.

384

: 00:19:13

But that's on you,

that's on your behavior.

385

: 00:19:16

And if you did something and it

wasn't read right, that's on you to

386

: 00:19:22

correct your misunderstood behavior.

387

: 00:19:26

It is not on the recipient of

that behavior to figure you out.

388

: 00:19:32

To give you and say, oh, everything you

do is positive because at the end of

389

: 00:19:37

the day, you may still be an asshole.

390

: 00:19:40

And yeah, I'm not good

391

: 00:19:42

forgive you for being

an asshole all the time.

392

: 00:19:44

So.

393

: 00:19:45

Once I learned to take those glasses off.

394

: 00:19:48

And that was really one of

the last steps of my recovery.

395

: 00:19:51

Makes sense.

396

: 00:19:52

That really empowered me and just

like, I don't need your anxiety.

397

: 00:19:58

I don't need your BS.

398

: 00:19:59

I don't need any of that . It gave

me a lot more control over my life.

399

: 00:20:03

So if someone telling you

to assume positive intent.

400

: 00:20:08

They said, no, that's on you.

401

: 00:20:10

Like you act with positive intent.

402

: 00:20:12

And if you fall short

of it, you can fix it.

403

: 00:20:15

And I'll be here to

work that out with you.

404

: 00:20:18

But that's not on me to constantly be

on guard or to monitor your behavior.

405

: 00:20:24

It's not, that's not

what we're here to do.

406

: 00:20:26

It's part of toxic positivity culture.

407

: 00:20:30

Oh, God gaslighting everyone

into everything being positive.

408

: 00:20:33

And then demonizing negativity, which

makes people-pleasers go further into

409

: 00:20:39

their shell because they don't want

to face the negativity or the tension.

410

: 00:20:43

So yeah, that feeds right into people

believe in culture a million percent.

411

: 00:20:47

Yeah.

412

: 00:20:48

Yes.

413

: 00:20:50

Yeah.

414

: 00:20:50

I just.

415

: 00:20:51

got on a tirade around that

now, because I just realized I

416

: 00:20:54

was buying into that so much.

417

: 00:20:58

And how harmful that is.

418

: 00:21:00

It really sounds so good.

419

: 00:21:01

It sounds so wonderful.

420

: 00:21:03

That was great jargon.

421

: 00:21:04

Yeah, that's great.

422

: 00:21:06

And then for like, yeah, it's great

for like a Ted talk on headline

423

: 00:21:09

or something like that, but in

practice, that allows for manipulators

424

: 00:21:15

to really work their magic.

425

: 00:21:18

Yeah.

426

: 00:21:18

And take away people's autonomy for sure.

427

: 00:21:21

For sure.

428

: 00:21:23

I wanted to circle back to what you'd said

about that moment when you realized what

429

: 00:21:27

boundaries were at work, and then you'd

said you started saying no to people.

430

: 00:21:33

If it was, maybe I'm not gonna do

that report at 6:00 PM or whatnot.

431

: 00:21:37

Do you have any advice about how

to start setting those boundaries?

432

: 00:21:41

Like literally what you'd say, because

I know there were times when I would,

433

: 00:21:46

I'm thinking about my teaching career

and I was the "do-er" I was on,

434

: 00:21:50

oh, Jenny, we'll do this committee,

Jenny, we'll go to the district

435

: 00:21:52

office and be this figure head.

436

: 00:21:54

Sure.

437

: 00:21:54

She'll do this.

438

: 00:21:55

And that.

439

: 00:21:56

And it was really hard

to tell my principal.

440

: 00:21:59

No, it was scary.

441

: 00:22:01

Never went around me.

442

: 00:22:02

Scared.

443

: 00:22:03

Me even more about doing it.

444

: 00:22:05

You're going to get in trouble.

445

: 00:22:07

Fear-mongering by my peers.

446

: 00:22:10

Yeah.

447

: 00:22:11

What phrase did you use?

448

: 00:22:12

How did you approach it?

449

: 00:22:14

So one of the things that I

really work on is diplomacy.

450

: 00:22:20

you can say no

451

: 00:22:22

without saying no.

452

: 00:22:23

Or you can say not now, which for a

lot of the requests that I may get it

453

: 00:22:30

was I don't have time for that, which

would have been a very honest statement.

454

: 00:22:36

Another tactic that I would use

was why so instead of just us.

455

: 00:22:42

Taking the, what, which is the demand?

456

: 00:22:44

Like what are they asking?

457

: 00:22:46

So do this.

458

: 00:22:48

Do this why?

459

: 00:22:48

Y.

460

: 00:22:49

Oh, yeah.

461

: 00:22:50

Okay.

462

: 00:22:50

So why me?

463

: 00:22:52

Why do you need it for urgently?

464

: 00:22:54

I learned there is a lot of

power in that why question?

465

: 00:23:01

Because suddenly that unlocked.

466

: 00:23:05

Oh, well, that's something that so-and-so

is much more qualified to do or much.

467

: 00:23:12

Oh, you can do that yourself

with this report on the computer,

468

: 00:23:16

you don't need me to do that or.

469

: 00:23:19

I don't think we should be

doing that for the client.

470

: 00:23:23

But sometimes we just have to be.

471

: 00:23:25

Courageous and say, no, I don't have time.

472

: 00:23:29

No, it's not my job or.

473

: 00:23:32

No, I just don't want to do it.

474

: 00:23:35

Obviously we have jobs and

we have responsibilities.

475

: 00:23:38

Yes, but start, being

honest with yourself.

476

: 00:23:41

That's the big secret.

477

: 00:23:43

Yeah, right.

478

: 00:23:44

You really want what.

479

: 00:23:45

Be honest with yourself to be able

to express it the way you need to.

480

: 00:23:50

So if you're

481

: 00:23:51

honest with yourself, then you

can express why you're saying

482

: 00:23:54

no, it won't come out as harsh.

483

: 00:23:57

And then on top of that Not

over-explain yourself either.

484

: 00:24:01

Cause that's where people

pleasers tend to overcompensate.

485

: 00:24:05

Because then that kind of undercut your

own personal authority behind your now.

486

: 00:24:11

Yes.

487

: 00:24:13

And that's a work in progress.

488

: 00:24:14

I think that that's the anxiety.

489

: 00:24:17

Yes.

490

: 00:24:17

And.

491

: 00:24:19

That's where you have to learn.

492

: 00:24:21

And that was the other

part of my journey is.

493

: 00:24:25

And I'm know, you've talked about this

with other guests about the anxiety we

494

: 00:24:29

feel and the critical voices in our heads.

495

: 00:24:34

I have a really nasty monster

in my head, even to this day.

496

: 00:24:40

And what I've learned is

it doesn't know anything.

497

: 00:24:44

It going to say.

498

: 00:24:45

Nasty critical things all

the time no matter what I do.

499

: 00:24:51

It's never going to be satisfied.

500

: 00:24:53

With what are done true.

501

: 00:24:56

And so it's unreliable.

502

: 00:24:58

I can't trust it.

503

: 00:24:59

It's a liar.

504

: 00:25:01

So why am I listen?

505

: 00:25:02

I don't listen to it anymore.

506

: 00:25:03

I hear it.

507

: 00:25:04

Yeah.

508

: 00:25:05

But I've learned to ignore it.

509

: 00:25:07

How did you learn to ignore it?

510

: 00:25:08

Is there like a trick, like when I went

to therapy, she did parts theory too.

511

: 00:25:12

So it's like different parts of

yourself talking to each other.

512

: 00:25:16

One is so I, I do a fair amount of writing

and marketing For the work I do for

513

: 00:25:22

like article, thought leadership pieces.

514

: 00:25:25

Oh, cool.

515

: 00:25:26

Every time I write something, it

would be like the, uh, hate this.

516

: 00:25:33

Yeah.

517

: 00:25:33

But it has to go out.

518

: 00:25:35

It goes out in the world and then I

see it like two or three years later.

519

: 00:25:41

And I read, oh, that's really good.

520

: 00:25:43

Nice.

521

: 00:25:44

Yeah.

522

: 00:25:45

It's like, yeah.

523

: 00:25:45

Like the distance allowed

me to really like the voice

524

: 00:25:49

wasn't there with the distance.

525

: 00:25:51

That's when I realized it was a liar.

526

: 00:25:53

And so once I had that little realization.

527

: 00:25:56

That helped.

528

: 00:25:57

And the other thing is,

which is a little hokey.

529

: 00:26:00

I'm a big Stephen Sondheim fan.

530

: 00:26:03

Okay.

531

: 00:26:03

Yeah.

532

: 00:26:04

And yeah, it's.

533

: 00:26:04

Just show called Sunday in the park with

George which is about artists one of

534

: 00:26:09

the songs the lyric is talking about.

535

: 00:26:12

Don't worry if your vision is new.

536

: 00:26:15

The other make that decision.

537

: 00:26:17

They usually do.

538

: 00:26:18

You have to move on.

539

: 00:26:20

Um, and that really spoke to me

because what are we basically

540

: 00:26:24

saying is people then judge, you.

541

: 00:26:27

They're going to jet you work.

542

: 00:26:28

Yeah.

543

: 00:26:29

No matter what you do.

544

: 00:26:30

I could put out what I think is the

most perfect thing in the world.

545

: 00:26:35

And someone's still gonna, not

like it true, or I can put out

546

: 00:26:38

the worst thing in the world.

547

: 00:26:40

In my opinion.

548

: 00:26:42

And someone can love it.

549

: 00:26:43

Can't be objective about my own work.

550

: 00:26:47

All I can do.

551

: 00:26:49

Do it.

552

: 00:26:51

And let it go and move on.

553

: 00:26:53

And so those two things together.

554

: 00:26:56

Just keep moving.

555

: 00:26:58

Don't get stuck.

556

: 00:26:59

Allowed me to just kind of amazing.

557

: 00:27:02

Lose it now.

558

: 00:27:03

Does it don't get me.

559

: 00:27:05

Yeah, I do.

560

: 00:27:06

I know you from improv.

561

: 00:27:08

Yeah, I can sometime get my head about

improv or things that I newer out.

562

: 00:27:14

I get.

563

: 00:27:15

You know, more insecure about.

564

: 00:27:17

But even then I realized,

oh, that's, what's going.

565

: 00:27:22

Yeah.

566

: 00:27:22

Yeah, heck up and, and, and sorry,

it just becoming conscious about it.

567

: 00:27:29

Yeah.

568

: 00:27:29

If I think enough to help you

at least unfreeze from it.

569

: 00:27:33

If you're aware that you

have this nasty voice.

570

: 00:27:37

I think start to disempower it.

571

: 00:27:39

It's not real people.

572

: 00:27:41

It's not a real person.

573

: 00:27:43

It's a figment of your imagination.

574

: 00:27:45

It has no real power.

575

: 00:27:48

I mean, we given a lot of power.

576

: 00:27:50

Yeah, just keep that in mind.

577

: 00:27:51

That's a good point.

578

: 00:27:53

It just neurons firing.

579

: 00:27:54

It's nothing.

580

: 00:27:56

Oh, and you put it that way, right?

581

: 00:27:58

It really is.

582

: 00:27:58

It's also like a collection

of other people's voices too.

583

: 00:28:01

It's not your own.

584

: 00:28:03

Other people who are critical

and then you internalized it.

585

: 00:28:06

Well, that's getting.

586

: 00:28:08

And to childhood

psychology, but yeah, not.

587

: 00:28:10

Even your own voice.

588

: 00:28:12

Nothing to do with you.

589

: 00:28:15

The biggest thing for me was.

590

: 00:28:17

Figuring out, as I said, if

you can't answer that question.

591

: 00:28:24

What is it you want?

592

: 00:28:26

Um, I think that is probably the

biggest indicator that you've been

593

: 00:28:32

putting yourself aside so much.

594

: 00:28:35

Yes so the first step is,

yeah, what do I even want?

595

: 00:28:38

So most people haven't considered

what their joys or passions are,

596

: 00:28:42

what their choices might've been.

597

: 00:28:44

But then are you worthy of taking

action for something for yourself?

598

: 00:28:49

Oh, that's the one I've been

working on, like worthy of taking up

599

: 00:28:53

space where the is all that stuff.

600

: 00:28:56

And it's so interesting because

everyone has their own inner world.

601

: 00:28:59

I've had people say to me, like one of our

improv friends said to me the one night

602

: 00:29:03

after we had gone out after a show and

we're walking to our cars and he's like,

603

: 00:29:06

so you're really a people pleaser, huh?

604

: 00:29:09

I'm like, yeah.

605

: 00:29:10

I got a fuck gets.

606

: 00:29:11

Yeah.

607

: 00:29:11

It's like.

608

: 00:29:12

Then that way, my whole life he's like,

ah, I just never would have guessed.

609

: 00:29:15

I just, from what I've known of

you these past few years, you just

610

: 00:29:19

seem to have your life together.

611

: 00:29:20

I never would've thought

you were a people pleaser.

612

: 00:29:22

It's just so interesting.

613

: 00:29:24

You don't know what's going on

the hind the closed doors of

614

: 00:29:27

our minds, I guess you'd say.

615

: 00:29:29

Yeah, I think the wording of

is definitely a big factor.

616

: 00:29:34

Yeah.

617

: 00:29:35

And to your last point, I think most

people that know me or see me externally.

618

: 00:29:41

I'm very successful and I'm very

proud of my accomplishments.

619

: 00:29:46

People always say, , you're

really confident.

620

: 00:29:48

And I was like, yeah,

I'm a really good actor.

621

: 00:29:51

Yeah, same.

622

: 00:29:52

I will say what I need to say, and

I will bite my nails in secret.

623

: 00:30:00

Aye.

624

: 00:30:02

know what is required to play the role.

625

: 00:30:05

There, it goes back to the expectations.

626

: 00:30:09

Aye went through a whole period.

627

: 00:30:10

I wouldn't buy anything for myself.

628

: 00:30:13

Interesting.

629

: 00:30:14

Yeah.

630

: 00:30:16

It was.

631

: 00:30:17

Like, why wouldn't you do that?

632

: 00:30:18

If you want this, you should

buy something for yourself.

633

: 00:30:22

I had to get a new car and, and

I was going to get a Ford edge.

634

: 00:30:27

And then it was a Lincoln

version, I think was a lDX

635

: 00:30:31

yeah.

636

: 00:30:31

And.

637

: 00:30:32

They were like, well, if you want

all the frills, just get the Lincoln.

638

: 00:30:38

But that's like a luxury car, like.

639

: 00:30:41

I'm not worthy I'm a lecturer car.

640

: 00:30:43

I'm not that guy like.

641

: 00:30:45

And my wife's, like, you can afford it.

642

: 00:30:48

Do you deserve it?

643

: 00:30:49

She made me get that car.

644

: 00:30:50

Oh, wow.

645

: 00:30:51

Make me realize that I am worthy.

646

: 00:30:55

Right?

647

: 00:30:55

So that is a really powerful

thing to get ingrained enough.

648

: 00:30:59

Yeah.

649

: 00:31:00

We're somehow less than, and

that goes way back definitely

650

: 00:31:04

deep seated in my childhood.

651

: 00:31:07

And you know, my disability.

652

: 00:31:09

It hasn't prevented me from being

successful, but somewhere in my brain,

653

: 00:31:15

early on, I was like, I'm different.

654

: 00:31:18

Yeah.

655

: 00:31:18

I equated different with.

656

: 00:31:21

less than.

657

: 00:31:22

Oh,

658

: 00:31:23

but you've done.

659

: 00:31:24

What many people don't do is come out of

it the other side, and do the work many

660

: 00:31:27

people don't break free of that and don't

pursue anything that they want to go for.

661

: 00:31:32

So kudos to you we're

working through that.

662

: 00:31:36

Well, I, had great parents.

663

: 00:31:39

I will say that I have great brothers and

a great family, and my wife is amazing.

664

: 00:31:46

And I had a great, great therapist.

665

: 00:31:49

And the willingness, and once you get

666

: 00:31:51

clarity.

667

: 00:31:52

I remember I want to get

back into some theater.

668

: 00:31:55

I want to get involved with.

669

: 00:31:57

My temple and the community.

670

: 00:32:00

I've been in this town for this long.

671

: 00:32:02

I don't know anyone.

672

: 00:32:05

Okay.

673

: 00:32:06

Just do.

674

: 00:32:07

You know what, you

know, what you want now.

675

: 00:32:10

Yeah.

676

: 00:32:11

Do it.

677

: 00:32:13

And it's like,

678

: 00:32:20

Like, what are you talking about?

679

: 00:32:22

Give me some big processes or something.

680

: 00:32:24

I can't just like sign up for.

681

: 00:32:26

What do you mean?

682

: 00:32:28

But then you have to take the steps.

683

: 00:32:31

And so that's where the courage come.

684

: 00:32:32

Can.

685

: 00:32:33

And the healing came in and my

life now is so, so different

686

: 00:32:38

from was even two years ago

687

: 00:32:40

Over the last three years, I have

made so many new friends and they're

688

: 00:32:45

not the lifelong close friends.

689

: 00:32:47

Like I had.

690

: 00:32:49

Yeah.

691

: 00:32:49

Out of college.

692

: 00:32:51

But there are good people on good

friends and people like hanging out

693

: 00:32:55

with, and certainly anyone I can

go have a cup of coffee with and

694

: 00:33:00

get support and laugh and joy from.

695

: 00:33:05

But it would not happen.

696

: 00:33:07

From an app, it had to be going to places.

697

: 00:33:12

With people doing things.

698

: 00:33:14

And I know that's a

different podcast, but.

699

: 00:33:18

It's healing to be with people.

700

: 00:33:21

It is.

701

: 00:33:22

I agree.

702

: 00:33:23

That makes me think of like the first

time I walked into an improv class here.

703

: 00:33:27

Cause you, and I know each other

from improv we're on the same

704

: 00:33:29

team classes, all that stuff.

705

: 00:33:31

And I had moved back to Buffalo.

706

: 00:33:34

This has been three years now.

707

: 00:33:35

And I was like, I miss improv.

708

: 00:33:36

I need community.

709

: 00:33:37

I need to be surrounded by like minded

people and that would include laughter.

710

: 00:33:41

So I remember I wanted to do improv.

711

: 00:33:44

So the identifying the want, but having,

like you said, the courage to step

712

: 00:33:49

into the class, I remember stepping

into studio J where they were holding

713

: 00:33:53

classes for Buffalo improv house at that

time one foot in front of the other, I

714

: 00:33:57

felt like a little kid who was new at

school because they all knew each other.

715

: 00:34:01

And I walked in and sat down and

I was nervous, but now I know

716

: 00:34:06

tons of people in the community,

you know, they're my friends.

717

: 00:34:10

but having that courage to just literally

put one foot in front of the other

718

: 00:34:13

till literally opened the door and

not run back to my car and be scared.

719

: 00:34:18

It's like being able to hold space

for those uncomfortable feelings.

720

: 00:34:23

As like really the backbone of it all.

721

: 00:34:25

Can you sit with your

uncomfortable feelings?

722

: 00:34:27

Can you do that?

723

: 00:34:28

Because really all this stuff is about

growth and expansion and you don't do

724

: 00:34:32

that when you're feeling comfortable.

725

: 00:34:35

So I was able to sit with the socially

awkwardness of those first few minutes

726

: 00:34:39

and three years later here I am.

727

: 00:34:41

The dirty secret is we're

all socially awkward.

728

: 00:34:45

Yes.

729

: 00:34:46

And I work with a lot of executives.

730

: 00:34:50

So many of them feel like frauds.

731

: 00:34:53

. And secure.

732

: 00:34:55

And I doubt fall and are struggling.

733

: 00:34:58

And the.

734

: 00:35:00

Putting the mask on just

like the rest of it.

735

: 00:35:04

Yeah.

736

: 00:35:04

Some of them are not.

737

: 00:35:07

But a lot of them are

just like everyone else.

738

: 00:35:10

We all have our insecurities

and our anxieties.

739

: 00:35:14

Some of us in different ways.

740

: 00:35:17

We're not all people pleasers are,

but some of us are compulsive and.

741

: 00:35:21

Another glasses that

people wear, like everyone

742

: 00:35:23

else's perfect.

743

: 00:35:24

And I'm not.

744

: 00:35:25

Everyone is imperfect.

745

: 00:35:27

Yes.

746

: 00:35:28

Yeah, great point.

747

: 00:35:29

The more I hear everyone's stories.

748

: 00:35:30

I'm like, I've never had a unique

human experience in my life.

749

: 00:35:33

There's always other people who've

had the same experience as I have.

750

: 00:35:37

And that's a comfort in that.

751

: 00:35:38

Yeah.

752

: 00:35:39

Just knowing that should be

a permission slip for you to

753

: 00:35:42

maybe try something different.

754

: 00:35:43

We feel good when we take chances.

755

: 00:35:45

And even if we fail,

there's something about.

756

: 00:35:49

At least took the chance I learned.

757

: 00:35:52

, it just, it's a muscle.

758

: 00:35:54

You got to work at true.

759

: 00:35:56

And, don't be too hard on yourself.

760

: 00:35:59

You're gonna mess up.

761

: 00:36:01

There's no such thing.

762

: 00:36:03

You're not a recovered people pleaser.

763

: 00:36:06

We're all recovering.

764

: 00:36:08

I was going to make

mistakes and that's okay.

765

: 00:36:11

And exactly a hundred percent grade.

766

: 00:36:12

I have a question for you

since we're both in improv.

767

: 00:36:15

Do you feel that improv has played a role

in your people, pleaser, recovery journey.

768

: 00:36:21

Yes, I will.

769

: 00:36:22

Say that.

770

: 00:36:23

When I started having time in my

life again, I used to do a lot of

771

: 00:36:29

acting in high school and college.

772

: 00:36:31

And I was like, oh, I'd like to do that.

773

: 00:36:33

I found community theater,

very difficult to break into.

774

: 00:36:39

Oh, yeah.

775

: 00:36:39

, so that's how I found the improv.

776

: 00:36:42

And what I kind of learned

is with the theater.

777

: 00:36:47

I would be playing a part.

778

: 00:36:49

And it was sort of like acceptance.

779

: 00:36:51

External validation

780

: 00:36:52

in that way, like, oh yeah.

781

: 00:36:55

And the way it's people pleasing.

782

: 00:36:57

Oh, did I do it right director?

783

: 00:36:59

Did I do.

784

: 00:37:01

Clap for me, clap for me.

785

: 00:37:03

Yes.

786

: 00:37:04

And of course.

787

: 00:37:05

You know, with improv,

you want acknowledgement.

788

: 00:37:10

And she wanted them to enjoy

the show, but what makes improv

789

: 00:37:14

different is it's in the moment.

790

: 00:37:18

It's all about supporting each

other, but being supported as

791

: 00:37:22

much as you are supporting others.

792

: 00:37:25

So, it's a true example of

how it's can be egalitarian.

793

: 00:37:31

It does not have to be.

794

: 00:37:33

One person does all the support

and the other person does all

795

: 00:37:37

the receiving of that support.

796

: 00:37:39

Right?

797

: 00:37:39

It's a mutual.

798

: 00:37:40

support system.

799

: 00:37:42

That's the only way that improv works.

800

: 00:37:44

Then the other point is it forces

you to be in the moment and.

801

: 00:37:49

I carry that into my life a lot.

802

: 00:37:52

I have stopped obsessing about

thing very used to be like 2,

803

: 00:37:57

3, 4 steps ahead or whatever.

804

: 00:38:01

And now it's like, I'm

just in the moment.

805

: 00:38:03

This is what I'm doing right now.

806

: 00:38:05

This is what needs to get done.

807

: 00:38:06

Amazing.

808

: 00:38:07

Improv helps you with that muscle

because that's all you can do on stage.

809

: 00:38:13

You can't.

810

: 00:38:13

I think two steps ahead Your partner

I'm going to throw something else

811

: 00:38:18

at you that you can't predict.

812

: 00:38:20

Right?

813

: 00:38:21

If anything, then you're also

practicing the muscle of saying the

814

: 00:38:25

thing, just say it because that's what

an improv is, like follow your feet.

815

: 00:38:29

So if you have the urge to move on to

a scene, follow your feet, and then

816

: 00:38:32

just say it, say the thing, take up

space, be worthy of that and say it.

817

: 00:38:37

So then you can apply that kind of

improv when you're telling someone,

818

: 00:38:42

no, I'm not able to do that today.

819

: 00:38:45

Just say the thing, follow

your feet, walk away.

820

: 00:38:48

Same elements of that.

821

: 00:38:49

Having that bravery on stage

can trickle into everyday life.

822

: 00:38:54

It's fun to perform.

823

: 00:38:55

It is, it's a lot of fun.

824

: 00:38:56

Even if you have stage fright.

825

: 00:38:59

You should do it once.

826

: 00:39:00

I agree, a million percent.

827

: 00:39:02

Another tenant that I've learned

through impromptu is embrace the suck.

828

: 00:39:06

So you can try out all the

different ways of speaking up and.

829

: 00:39:12

And saying whatever comes to mind, you

can practice that and not worry it's safe.

830

: 00:39:16

You can say whatever comes

to mind and you're protected.

831

: 00:39:19

So it's like a nice trial

run for real life stuff.

832

: 00:39:24

Yeah.

833

: 00:39:24

When you have to say, it's a

friends, family, and coworkers.

834

: 00:39:27

Yeah.

835

: 00:39:28

I mean, definitely a

good trial run for sure.

836

: 00:39:31

And bad stuff happens

on stage thing clunk.

837

: 00:39:35

True.

838

: 00:39:36

And yeah.

839

: 00:39:37

If done it's gone and life is moved

on, One of the lessons I've

840

: 00:39:42

really tried to teach my kids.

841

: 00:39:44

It's really hard.

842

: 00:39:45

my one son just think too much

about what other people are thinking.

843

: 00:39:49

Oh yeah.

844

: 00:39:50

And I just say, I'm sorry people

just don't think about you that much.

845

: 00:39:54

I didn't think about you at all.

846

: 00:39:56

I'm sorry.

847

: 00:39:57

I don't think this person cares

that you missed an appointment.

848

: 00:40:01

I don't, I think it's a

blip on their calendar.

849

: 00:40:05

That's it.

850

: 00:40:06

So we get in our heads about the thing

that how much people are thinking

851

: 00:40:10

about us or what they're saying.

852

: 00:40:12

Oh gosh.

853

: 00:40:12

Yes.

854

: 00:40:13

They're probably worried about what

other people are thinking of them.

855

: 00:40:15

So.

856

: 00:40:16

It's just this vicious cycle.

857

: 00:40:18

Everyone's thinking about

themselves a million times

858

: 00:40:20

more than they are anyone else.

859

: 00:40:22

So, yeah, that's freeing.

860

: 00:40:24

Let it go.

861

: 00:40:25

Exactly.

862

: 00:40:27

I asked all of my guests.

863

: 00:40:29

Do you have a piece of advice,

a quote that really resonates

864

: 00:40:33

with you that helps you.

865

: 00:40:36

I call it my bumper sticker, quote.

866

: 00:40:38

Yes.

867

: 00:40:39

Assume positive intent.

868

: 00:40:41

Oh, really?

869

: 00:40:42

Wow.

870

: 00:40:42

Okay.

871

: 00:40:45

Don't set yourself on

fire to keep others warm.

872

: 00:40:49

Oh, that's so good.

873

: 00:40:52

Can you say it again?

874

: 00:40:53

Don't set yourself on

fire to keep others warm.

875

: 00:40:57

That is so spot on.

876

: 00:40:58

Why did you choose that?

877

: 00:41:00

Cause that's how it

felt in some of my work.

878

: 00:41:03

Like I was sacrificing everything

about myself, so everyone

879

: 00:41:08

else would benefit from it.

880

: 00:41:09

My clients, my coworkers, my family.

881

: 00:41:13

And I was burning up.

882

: 00:41:16

Right.

883

: 00:41:16

I was burning out, like literally.

884

: 00:41:18

I think we do that.

885

: 00:41:19

So it really resonated

with me when I saw that.

886

: 00:41:23

Well, thank you so much for

being here today and sharing

887

: 00:41:25

your story and your perspective.

888

: 00:41:29

Really good.

889

: 00:41:30

I hope it's helpful.

890

: 00:41:31

And.

891

: 00:41:33

Okay.

892

: 00:41:34

Yes, and!

893

: 00:41:37

Thank you so much, Jeff.

894

: 00:41:39

My pleasure.

895

: 00:41:40

Bye bye.

896

: 00:41:40

Bye.