Ep. 37: Interview with Cherisse Fortunato: Lessons of Love, Loss, and Letting Go

Jenny: 00:00:05

I'm always amazed by people who come and want to tell their people

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pleaser stories because being so

vulnerable, telling your truth behind

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a microphone to the whole world is

the ultimate people pleaser recovery.

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Yeah.

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You get to like the highest reward level.

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It's very scary, but I will say it

feels a little safe because I'm doing it

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behind a microphone, not to their face.

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This is true.

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Yeah.

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Like that to me.

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That's my goal.

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That's my end goal.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Can I express to you, I can

write it, I can speak it, but

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can I say it to you face to face?

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Yeah.

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Which is hard.

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Yeah, I agree.

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Yeah, it definitely is.

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I think that's why, too, I like podcasting

or radio because you don't have the video.

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Yes.

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There's something about that, like

your facial expressions, when you're

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telling these kinds of personal

stories, it's more easeful to just talk.

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Right.

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Right.

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And I, I don't trust my face because

it tells everything, so if you can't

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see my face, that's even better.

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Yeah.

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I have trouble muting my

facial expressions sometimes.

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Yes.

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Absolutely.

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Well, thank you so much

for being here today.

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Thank you for having me.

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Yeah, want to tell us a

little bit about yourself?

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Yes, my name is Cherise Fortunato,

and I am a recovering people pleaser

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since probably age six or seven.

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Um, I am currently a teacher aide

at Clarence Center, but before that,

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I stayed at home with my two kids.

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And then before that, I

worked at a radio station.

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So you are just a natural

behind the microphone already.

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It's good to be home.

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That's so amazing.

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I love it.

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What did you love most about radio?

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Um, I loved all the fun

things you could do.

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Like, every day you went into

work and it was something new.

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I loved working with artists.

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Like, the coolest artists would

come in and I'm like, I just

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met Adam Levine from Maroon 5.

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Which, by the way, wasn't a huge fan.

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So I should have picked someone better.

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But like, you meet so many cool people.

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It's so true.

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Cause we were talking about before

we were recording, like I also worked

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in radio and I remember just walking

in to put my lunch in the break room

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fridge and like having major comedians

just standing in the breaker and

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ready to go on the morning show.

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And I'm like, Oh,

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I remember screech powers came through

one day and I was, and he like raided our

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promo closet, which has all the prizes.

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And we were like, yes,

take whatever you want.

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And we're like, He doesn't even need

this, but it was screech power, so

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we were going to say, yeah, exactly.

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I love it.

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And now here we are talking about

people pleasing which is funny.

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Cause you just said, take everything.

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Exactly.

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I was, I was not recovered

yet, but you know what?

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That's okay.

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Because that's what

makes life interesting.

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I guess we can just dive into what

people pleasing is because I know people

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mean well like you meant well to Give

someone gifts and things like that.

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So I don't think that people pleasing

comes from a right nefarious space,

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but I have been doing a lot of

reflecting personally how even though

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i'm recovering, i'm still feeling

sometimes negative effects from it .And

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I'm noticing it more and more internally.

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So what is your experience

with people pleasing been?

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Like, how does it manifest in your life?

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For me, people pleasing, it It's always

me anticipating how that person's

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going to feel and react to what I do.

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And ever since I was little, I

just wanted everyone's approval.

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So to me, it was like listening

to them and watching them

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instead of looking inward to me.

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And what do I want and how

does this make me feel?

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I've always been focused on how

other people feel and I've ignored.

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Well, what do I really want this?

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Oh, yeah, and um, I don't know.

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Do you do Enneagram?

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Do you know Enneagram?

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Oh, my friend wants me to take the quiz

and I took it But then she says that

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she doesn't think that's what I was.

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Oh, she said I don't know the

quiz said it was a seven Oh, okay.

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Sevens are super fun.

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Okay.

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Um, my Enneagram is two, and that's the

helper and you're always wanting to help.

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And I'm like, yeah,

that's a people pleaser.

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Like, how can I make you happy?

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I'm glad you brought that up.

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being an inherent part of who you are,

like being a helper doesn't necessarily

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mean that something you need to recover

from, you know, I think that might

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be one of the hardest parts of people

pleasing because you want to help people.

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You want to, you know, if

you're that caregiver energy.

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And Ayurveda, it's that kapha,

earthy, loving, nurturing energy.

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That's wonderful, but it's hard to find

that balance between maybe giving some

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of that to yourself, not just to others.

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Yes.

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It's all about the balance and

the problem with helpers or people

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pleasers, you give, give, give.

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And then you kind of reach a breaking

point and you act out of character.

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And all of a sudden you're like, snap.

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And it's because you're empty

because you've given so much, but

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you need to find that balance of

what do I need in this moment.

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Let's not worry about them.

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And it's like.

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I, I hate this saying because it's all

the time, but it's the old airport rule.

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You need to put your, you know, oxygen

mask on first before you help anyone else.

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I used to always be like, as when

I became a mom, it's like, no, I'm

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going to put it on my children first.

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Like I'll hold my breath and

I'll put it on my children first.

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And I was very adamant about that.

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And then as I've grown, I'm like.

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No, it's okay.

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It's okay to take care.

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You need to be in your best spot so

that you can be the best for others.

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How did you make that shift?

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Cause that's so hard.

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Your body is literally saying

protect and nurture this child.

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I literally created like, or that

have created a family around.

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Honestly, I, I can't

pinpoint what it was.

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I do a lot of reading.

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I listened to a lot of podcasts and

it was just this shift in my brain.

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I'm so glad that I discovered it

because I feel like I am a better

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mother when I am taking care of

myself and I am healthy instead of it.

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I used to be the mom who does everything

for my kid, you know, and, um, put myself

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last because that's what a good mom does.

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But that's not, you're not at your best

if you're not taking care of yourself.

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Oh, I have so many

questions to ask about this.

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Twofold.

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How do you manage if there's any

guilt that comes up when you're maybe

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having to prioritize yourself first?

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And then how do you manage possible guilt

or pressures from other people around you?

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Do you have that come up at all

of what you should be doing?

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Yes, I definitely have guilt.

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and that's when I just take a step back

and reflect, okay, so like today I'm

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going to go have dinner with my friend

after this podcast and I have a lot of

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guilt with that because I'm not going

to be home for my kids for dinner, um,

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but I, I took a step back and I said,

I never get to have a dinner with one

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of my closest friends and I know when

I come home from that dinner, I'm going

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to be so fulfilled that I will have it.

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An energy that I can bring to my

family for the rest of the evening

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that I wouldn't if I left here, raced

home, try to get dinner on the table.

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So.

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I think I just have that constant,

um, reminder to myself , and

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just check in with my body and

say, what do I need right now?

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Because I know I'm confident that I do

give to my family what they need and I am

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present with them 99 percent of the time.

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Yeah.

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So then when I want to take a

night off, I don't feel guilty.

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That's amazing.

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Has that triggered anyone in your life?

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Because I feel that there is

still somewhat of that social

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norm of the selfless, all

encompassing maternal figure energy.

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If there is, I am unaware of it.

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I had a group of mom friends when I

was a stay at home mom, and we really

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made that a priority, our self care.

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So those are the people I'm

surrounding myself with.

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Awesome.

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Um, so I don't feel guilt.

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My husband is wonderful.

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So he never puts pressure or guilt on me.

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And really, my girls, my

two daughters, They're okay.

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So if my husband and my two girls

are happy and I'm happy, that's all

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I'm going to concern myself with.

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That gives me hope for humanity because

what made me think of this was, this

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clip from Oprah from the early nineties

when she talked about self care and

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I think it was creating a vision

board, something along those lines,

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the audience literally booed her.

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They were lashing out saying how selfish

of you to put your self care first.

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So now to hear that shift that people are

supporting each other doing that is huge.

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Yeah, cuz I think that was , one of the

core beliefs that led to people pleasing

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And I think I grew up with a parent who

was very selfless But I didn't get the

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best version because she was so worn out.

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Exactly.

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When did you realize that

you were a people pleaser?

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I don't know when I realized it.

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Maybe not until I was older.

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But there's a very specific moment

from my childhood where I was

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like, Oh my gosh, that was awful.

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Oh no.

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Please share.

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Yes, yes.

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Um, my parents got a divorce and it was

a very long drawn out difficult time It

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was about a two year maybe three year

period and we had reached the point

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So we were living under the same roof.

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We were all together, but they knew

they were getting divorced We reached

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a point where it was time to sell

the house My dad was moving somewhere

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and my mom was moving another place.

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I have an older sister.

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I had an older brother He passed away,

but at that time they said we're going

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with dad That's what they wanted to do.

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I wanted to go with dad, but I felt

so bad that no one was going with mom.

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Wow.

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That I said, okay, I'll go

with mom and I didn't want to.

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She was moving.

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We grew up in North Tonawanda.

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My dad was gonna stay in North Tonawanda.

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That felt more comfortable.

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I knew that area.

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Unbeknownst to me, I didn't realize until

after I'd made that decision, we were

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moving in with her new boyfriend as well.

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Oh wow.

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Yes.

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Oh wow.

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So I remember she took me to the

house and she said, this will be

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your room and this will be our room.

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And I just kind of like

your stomach drops.

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Yeah.

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And I just didn't say anything.

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And I just said, okay.

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I mean.

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It's my stepdad now.

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He's a wonderful person.

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Yeah, but I didn't know him.

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Yeah, I didn't know that at the time.

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Mm hmm.

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And I lived with her.

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I can't remember how long it was But my

sister reminds me -I asked my sister to

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talk to my mom and say Charisse wants to

go live with dad because I was so afraid.

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Oh, I didn't want to break her heart,

but I just didn't want to be there.

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And, um, I eventually moved in with

my dad, which is where I wanted to be.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Wow.

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Taking on the emotional, I don't

know, brunt, if you will, I guess

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for your parent, like trying to save

them from pain and then bringing

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that battle within yourself at

such a young age, that's so hard.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And even before that, as they were

going through their divorce, I always

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had this dream that one day we were

gonna wake up and realize oh, they're

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okay Like they figured things out because

it was such a drawn out period that

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there were good days and then there were

bad days and so I Would do whatever I

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could to make them happy so that they

wouldn't fight, you know, I made sure

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that the dishes were put away or that

Dad said it's time to go to church,

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I'm ready for church, even though

I don't really want to go to church

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But yeah, yeah, I don't want to

make any extra Stress in the house.

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Wow.

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. So then how how do you think that impacted

you and your relationships moving forward?

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some deep self reflection I just

think ever since then as far as other

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relationships, if I wasn't people

pleasing, if I actually thought about

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myself and made a decision for myself,

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I upset them because they

weren't used to that.

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That is a huge thing that comes up

when you start choosing yourself.

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And it's so hard.

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It's not even making the

decision to choose yourself.

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It's the aftermath.

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It's the repercussions of that, right?

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Right.

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But I know therapists would say that shows

that you really needed the boundary in the

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first place, But that doesn't necessarily

make it easier to have to navigate that.

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Yes one thing that has helped me with

that is like this meme is What you

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can control, what you can't control.

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Mm hmm, and it's your reaction

and your behavior and You do

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what you think is right for you,

and you don't worry about that.

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That's going to be on them.

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How they choose to react is on them.

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It's hard, but reminding

myself of that helps.

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True.

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And I can relate to what you're saying as

well even from romantic relationships, I

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call myself a recovering rescuer, which I

guess is a subcategory of people pleasing.

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Okay.

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I've got my own like terminology

that I've come up with.

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So recovering rescuer in the fact

of` people who have, uh, emotional

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things that they need to work

through, have their own traumas.

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And I wanted to help them.

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I see you're suffering.

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I don't want you to suffer.

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I can take it on the chin for you.

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I can take that burden for you.

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And now I know that it was a doing them

a disservice because how are they going

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to heal and grow if I kept coming behind

them and cleaning up the messes or

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holding space and processing it for them.

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So like I can just, this has been

a pattern within myself- romantic

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relationships, friendships, family,

whatever it is, tell me your troubles

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and I will process it for you.

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Oh, well, it looks like this is the

reason why or here are some solutions.

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And I did all the emotional heavy lifting.

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Yep.

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That when you said romantic relationships,

it reminded me of a relationship I had

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when I was a teenager and early 20s.

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So I had started dating this person before

I had worked at the radio station and

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then I I got my job at the radio station

and once I was on air, I think it was a

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whole process because I was now getting

older and more confident and I had new

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friends and, um, there was a tension

because you worked at a radio station.

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So you're cool.

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And I remember.

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You're super cool.

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Yeah.

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So cool.

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Um, and I remember him making me feel bad.

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He's like, you've changed.

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You're not, you're not the same person.

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I took that in and I was

like, have I changed?

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And I really thought about it.

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I was like, no, I'm just not

a yes person to you anymore.

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I have my own choices.

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Or I say not tonight.

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I'm not going to sit and

watch you play video games.

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I'm going to go do something else.

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But it was that change, you

know, me putting myself first.

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And he wasn't used to that.

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Yeah.

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So you're like, yeah, it did change.

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Because now you are feeling the

effects of me putting myself first.

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So yeah, I did change for the better.

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For the better.

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Yeah, so I guess he was right,

but yeah, for the better.

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Exactly.

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With all of that in mind, you know

going through your stages or age

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groups of people pleasing, you know

as a child and you're talking about

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relationships in your early 20s, do

you have a specific turning point of

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when this really started to shift?

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I can't pinpoint a turning

point, but there's a couple

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things that have helped me.

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First is my husband is the

opposite of a people pleaser.

326

: 00:16:15

That helps, but also probably

was uncomfortable at times, too.

327

: 00:16:18

Yes.

328

: 00:16:19

Cause you're like, Oh,

he really said that?

329

: 00:16:21

Exactly.

330

: 00:16:22

Oh God.

331

: 00:16:22

Yes.

332

: 00:16:23

I want to just melt into

the floor right now.

333

: 00:16:26

Yes.

334

: 00:16:26

Because we would be with

people and he would just give

335

: 00:16:30

a, his, he was being honest.

336

: 00:16:32

He was giving an honest answer.

337

: 00:16:34

There was a time where he was

invited to go on a guy's trip

338

: 00:16:37

and he's like, no, thanks

339

: 00:16:43

But I don't want to go so I'm just

saying no and I was like you're right

340

: 00:16:49

like that is not being a people pleaser.

341

: 00:16:52

You're listening to yourself saying I'd

rather spend this time with my family.

342

: 00:16:57

I'm not gonna go just because I

was invited, and it wasn't rude,

343

: 00:17:02

but it totally caught me off guard.

344

: 00:17:04

I bet.

345

: 00:17:04

Yeah.

346

: 00:17:05

So being around him, I think

that's rubbed off a little bit.

347

: 00:17:08

Mm-hmm . Um, I think a big

piece of it is becoming a mom.

348

: 00:17:13

Because with that.

349

: 00:17:15

So much energy is put into taking care

of your kids, so you have very little

350

: 00:17:20

energy for yourself or time for yourself.

351

: 00:17:22

So with that time, I wanted to make sure

I was spending it the way I wanted to.

352

: 00:17:30

And I very much the person if I

get invited somewhere or someone

353

: 00:17:34

says, Hey, we're all doing this.

354

: 00:17:36

I always say yes, whether

I really want to or not.

355

: 00:17:39

And I've learned to sit back.

356

: 00:17:42

You don't have to reply right away.

357

: 00:17:43

And think about it.

358

: 00:17:45

Do you really want to spend your night

off with these people or do you really

359

: 00:17:51

want to spend money going away with these

people or would you rather save it and go

360

: 00:17:58

with your real friends or not real friends

but people you're more comfortable with?

361

: 00:18:03

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

362

: 00:18:04

I can relate to what you're saying.

363

: 00:18:06

It's not like limitless time.

364

: 00:18:08

So I've been more careful

with how I spend it.

365

: 00:18:12

And to piggyback on that, making

the decision is the first step.

366

: 00:18:16

But for me, what is also the hardest

part is sitting with the tension

367

: 00:18:20

of someone being disappointed.

368

: 00:18:22

Yes.

369

: 00:18:22

It's like.

370

: 00:18:23

I had to keep repeating to myself in my

mind, they're adults, they can manage

371

: 00:18:28

their own emotions, they're adults,

they can manage their own emotions.

372

: 00:18:31

Being disappointed is something

that happens when you're an adult.

373

: 00:18:34

That's a great reminder.

374

: 00:18:35

And again, it goes back to,

you can't control the reaction.

375

: 00:18:39

If they're disappointed,

they're disappointed.

376

: 00:18:41

Yeah.

377

: 00:18:41

And another thing was, it's, it's none

of your business how they feel, right?

378

: 00:18:45

Like, I'm very much, I

want everyone to like me.

379

: 00:18:49

And I've learned it's okay if they don't

like you and it's not your business.

380

: 00:18:53

It doesn't matter.

381

: 00:18:55

Yeah.

382

: 00:18:56

How did you get to that point,

383

: 00:18:58

Because that's wonderful.

384

: 00:18:59

I'm like, holy crap.

385

: 00:19:00

So I get to that point.

386

: 00:19:03

I, I would say `80% of

the time, that's great.

387

: 00:19:07

That's a great rate.

388

: 00:19:08

I, I don't know, I think it's

really listening to podcasts of

389

: 00:19:13

people who aren't people pleasers.

390

: 00:19:14

Oh yeah.

391

: 00:19:15

, you know, uh, and, and reading books.

392

: 00:19:18

I love Brene Brown.

393

: 00:19:20

I was really into Glennon Doyle for a

little bit and I think she's very heavy

394

: 00:19:25

on boundaries and thinking about yourself.

395

: 00:19:29

So maybe it was from that.

396

: 00:19:30

It's also, I'm happy with who I am and

I have a great family and a great base.

397

: 00:19:37

And so I know that anything else is bonus.

398

: 00:19:41

Oh, that's amazing.

399

: 00:19:43

But I don't like at work.

400

: 00:19:46

I was very much I want everyone

to like me and I'm a naturally

401

: 00:19:51

bubbly, energetic person, which

is not the best for everybody.

402

: 00:19:55

You know, like some people don't

want a cheery hello in the morning.

403

: 00:19:59

They just want to give a quiet smile.

404

: 00:20:02

So I'm very over the top and and.

405

: 00:20:05

I was like, why don't

these people like me?

406

: 00:20:06

Why aren't they happy to see me?

407

: 00:20:07

And it's like, because that's

not their style and that's okay.

408

: 00:20:11

They don't need to enjoy

the energy I'm giving off.

409

: 00:20:15

The people who do, I can feel it

and I need to be happy with that.

410

: 00:20:22

That's huge.

411

: 00:20:23

Because I can totally relate.

412

: 00:20:24

And being a chameleon, I used to call

myself that, you know, I'd shift, say

413

: 00:20:29

the person who didn't like that energy,

because I'm, I'm naturally bubbly, I

414

: 00:20:33

guess, if you will, I would morph myself

into whomever's in front of me, which I

415

: 00:20:39

know can be A useful social tool, but not

when it becomes your entire personality,

416

: 00:20:46

because you're avoiding the tension

of someone not liking what you said.

417

: 00:20:50

Right.

418

: 00:20:51

I have this specific memory from

when I was a child, like patting

419

: 00:20:55

myself on the back because I was

like, wow, I am so many different

420

: 00:20:58

people when I'm with this person.

421

: 00:21:00

You know, I do things to make them laugh.

422

: 00:21:03

And then when I'm with this

person, I put on my serious side.

423

: 00:21:07

Whatever it may be.

424

: 00:21:09

And I can look back and think

, no, just be you and it's okay.

425

: 00:21:14

I'm laughing because that is

literally my childhood as well.

426

: 00:21:17

I bounced between friend groups, all

different personalities and interests,

427

: 00:21:21

which I love a bunch of different stuff.

428

: 00:21:23

So, I mean, there is that, but also.

429

: 00:21:25

Who am I really?

430

: 00:21:26

I'm still figuring that out now because

you'd brought up like what do you want?

431

: 00:21:30

What makes you truly happy?

432

: 00:21:32

Who are you?

433

: 00:21:33

I'm still figuring that out

because I masked it for so long.

434

: 00:21:37

I don't, I don't know.

435

: 00:21:39

I guess, but I'm trying to turn that

into something that's enjoyable to

436

: 00:21:42

figure out versus something to fix.

437

: 00:21:44

Yeah.

438

: 00:21:45

Something that has helped me Figure

out who I am is I did a lot of work

439

: 00:21:51

with figuring out my values and

there's a million things online

440

: 00:21:55

And therapists can help you but I

was like, what do I truly value?

441

: 00:22:01

Oh, I like that.

442

: 00:22:01

The one that sticks up at the top for

me is Fun loving, and I don't even

443

: 00:22:06

know if that's a real value if I just

came up with that, but I am completely

444

: 00:22:10

myself when I am in a fun loving

mood and usually that entails music

445

: 00:22:16

playing, I'm singing not well, but I

am singing out loud and I am dancing

446

: 00:22:22

with my kids or my friends or whatever.

447

: 00:22:25

That is when I feel my truest

pure self and then yeah, I am.

448

: 00:22:31

Yeah.

449

: 00:22:32

It just feels good.

450

: 00:22:33

And the people who like me in that zone,

I'm like, I guess you are my people.

451

: 00:22:37

Yeah.

452

: 00:22:38

That's a great way to put it.

453

: 00:22:39

Yep.

454

: 00:22:39

You know, because people can

see me in that zone and be

455

: 00:22:41

like, Oh my God, there she goes.

456

: 00:22:43

Yeah.

457

: 00:22:43

She is so extra.

458

: 00:22:44

Blah, blah, blah.

459

: 00:22:45

And you're like, well, maybe I'm

a little too extra for you, but

460

: 00:22:48

I'm just right for my core people.

461

: 00:22:50

Exactly.

462

: 00:22:50

Exactly.

463

: 00:22:51

And having the bravery to go

through those friendship breakups

464

: 00:22:55

and distancing yourself from

people who try to dim your light.

465

: 00:23:00

I know that's a cliche, but it's true.

466

: 00:23:01

Yeah.

467

: 00:23:02

Having the bravery to do that

because I've had friendships fade

468

: 00:23:05

away on this healing journey.

469

: 00:23:07

Absolutely.

470

: 00:23:08

And it was painful in the middle

of it, but now I'm like, Oh gosh, I

471

: 00:23:12

don't even resonate with that person.

472

: 00:23:15

Yes and another thing is, is like, I

have my core group who know me in and

473

: 00:23:21

out and love me for who I am, and it's

okay to have other friends who, you

474

: 00:23:26

know, maybe aren't into that, but they're

awesome for a casual hangout, right?

475

: 00:23:31

Yeah, yeah.

476

: 00:23:31

You know, it's not like if you

don't like me a hundred percent,

477

: 00:23:34

then we're not going to be friends.

478

: 00:23:35

No.

479

: 00:23:36

I'm going to choose to spend most of

my time with the people who I feel most

480

: 00:23:40

comfortable with, but I love like you

said different groups of people , and

481

: 00:23:45

different styles, but I just know

where most of my energy is going to go.

482

: 00:23:49

I'm glad you brought up about

where your energy is going to go

483

: 00:23:52

because that is something that

has been on my mind a lot lately.

484

: 00:23:55

I'm reading this book called 4,

000 Weeks About Time Management.

485

: 00:23:59

Okay.

486

: 00:23:59

It's time management for mortals, but it's

really about getting over the FOMO, like

487

: 00:24:04

fear of missing out, and embracing the

joy of missing out, and that you only have

488

: 00:24:09

a finite amount of time and essentially

energy in your day, and really sitting and

489

: 00:24:16

thinking about where are you spending it?

490

: 00:24:18

you spend time.

491

: 00:24:20

You spend energy.

492

: 00:24:21

So where are you putting it?

493

: 00:24:23

And I think as a people pleaser,

you spend a lot of energy dealing

494

: 00:24:27

with the war that's raging within

you, the war of resentment and the

495

: 00:24:31

shoulds and the regret of saying yes

to something that was really a no.

496

: 00:24:36

And that has been eye opening for me.

497

: 00:24:38

I'm like, is this how I really

want to spend, literally

498

: 00:24:41

spend my life force energy?

499

: 00:24:42

Yes.

500

: 00:24:43

Doing, I don't want to do that.

501

: 00:24:44

So I would rather deal with a short

term, uncomfortable conversation or

502

: 00:24:50

uncomfortableness within myself saying

no versus sitting in an internal misery

503

: 00:24:56

of a yes that I didn't want to say.

504

: 00:24:58

That is such a good point, and

I've been there before too.

505

: 00:25:03

I'm a recovering FOMO as well and I've

been in the situation where I said

506

: 00:25:09

yes because everyone else said yes,

and I didn't want to be the only one

507

: 00:25:12

not there and then I would show up and

within five minutes I just felt drained.

508

: 00:25:17

I was like, I don't

actually want to be here.

509

: 00:25:20

This actually isn't lifting me up at

all . It's bringing me down and now

510

: 00:25:26

I've just taken away precious time

that I've could have used better.

511

: 00:25:30

Yes, so much work.

512

: 00:25:36

It's great when you're on the other

side of it, but the practice of

513

: 00:25:39

retraining your brain to make different

decisions it takes a lot of energy

514

: 00:25:43

to self assess and reflect and prepare

yourself to say no or whatever it may be.

515

: 00:25:51

Are there certain tools or techniques

or things that you've done to

516

: 00:25:55

help you on your healing journey?

517

: 00:25:58

I've thought back to those times,

like I was just saying the FOMO times

518

: 00:26:02

where I show up because everyone else

did and I realized I didn't have fun.

519

: 00:26:06

so that moment actually really helped

me because the next time a situation I

520

: 00:26:11

get invited to something, I think, okay.

521

: 00:26:14

When you walk in that door,

how are you going to feel?

522

: 00:26:18

Are you going to want to be there?

523

: 00:26:20

I think it's just self reflecting.

524

: 00:26:22

Yeah, and visualizing it and giving

yourself permission to say no, too.

525

: 00:26:27

Right, and another thing I was

going to say is it's very much two

526

: 00:26:31

steps forward, one step back, right?

527

: 00:26:33

I mean, I'm saying all these

things and that's ideal, right?

528

: 00:26:37

That's when I'm at my best.

529

: 00:26:38

But there are days where I'm

like, Everyone's going, I'm going.

530

: 00:26:41

Yeah, exactly.

531

: 00:26:43

I'm just gonna go and it's gonna

be fun and we'll make it fun.

532

: 00:26:46

And, you know, you come home and you're

like, Oh man, that wasn't that fun.

533

: 00:26:49

But don't beat yourself up about it.

534

: 00:26:51

Yes, exactly.

535

: 00:26:52

It's okay, and maybe

that's a tool for next time.

536

: 00:26:55

Alright, if so and so is gonna be there.

537

: 00:26:58

I don't want to be around that,

that's okay, . Every day is a new

538

: 00:27:02

challenge, you're always, it is,

you're always going to have moments

539

: 00:27:07

where you have to think, am I people

pleasing or is this what I really want?

540

: 00:27:11

Yes, exactly.

541

: 00:27:13

So I'm sure within that there's been

times when maybe you felt stuck or you're

542

: 00:27:18

like, oh gosh, it's just so much work.

543

: 00:27:20

What keeps you going?

544

: 00:27:22

What keeps you reflecting and saying

yes and continuing to recover?

545

: 00:27:26

a big motivator for me are my children.

546

: 00:27:30

We're very open.

547

: 00:27:31

We have lots of conversations and I'd

like to talk to them through this to kind

548

: 00:27:36

of model it So I think you know if my

daughter's in a situation where she's got

549

: 00:27:42

invited to a party and she knows she's

going to hate It how do I want her to

550

: 00:27:46

react and how can I give her those tools

to react in the way that's true to her?

551

: 00:27:51

I think like putting them at the

forefront and saying how is my behavior?

552

: 00:27:55

They're watching me Going to

help them when they're in these

553

: 00:27:59

situations, and just choosing to

vocalize that and talk through,

554

: 00:28:04

you know, like, Oh, I got invited,

but I don't know, what do you think?

555

: 00:28:08

And just including them

in the conversation.

556

: 00:28:11

And sometimes they're

like, mom, you should go.

557

: 00:28:12

No, that sounds like you would have fun.

558

: 00:28:14

I'm like, yeah, I mean, you know,

yeah, yeah, whatever it may be.

559

: 00:28:18

But I honestly, my biggest goal

in life is to be the best mom and

560

: 00:28:25

to raise healthy, happy children.

561

: 00:28:27

And we're right on the precipice

of teenagers, . I was just, I was

562

: 00:28:32

gonna ask how old they're, oh gosh.

563

: 00:28:33

You're going to, how old are your kids?

564

: 00:28:35

So my oldest is 14 and my

youngest is going to be 12 in July.

565

: 00:28:41

are you about to have a high schooler?

566

: 00:28:42

About to have a high schooler?

567

: 00:28:44

Oh yeah.

568

: 00:28:45

and so.

569

: 00:28:46

I know what my life looked like at

those ages and what it looked

570

: 00:28:50

like for my brother and my sister.

571

: 00:28:53

And it's a huge motivator to

have a very different childhood

572

: 00:28:57

and teenage years for them.

573

: 00:28:59

I think that ideally is my driving force.

574

: 00:29:03

I know what I went through and I don't

ever want them to go through that.

575

: 00:29:09

That's very admirable and wonderful.

576

: 00:29:11

Thank you.

577

: 00:29:13

So I like to ask everyone who comes

on the show if you have any specific

578

: 00:29:17

books or speakers, resources That have

really helped you, have inspired you.

579

: 00:29:22

Do you have anything you'd recommend?

580

: 00:29:24

Yeah, I love Brene Brown.

581

: 00:29:26

I read most of her books.

582

: 00:29:27

I mentioned Glennon Doyle.

583

: 00:29:30

She has a couple of good

books, but also Dr.

584

: 00:29:32

Becky , "Good Inside"- that's

for everybody, but parents to

585

: 00:29:37

recognize when children, especially

teenagers, are doing something

586

: 00:29:41

that's just like, what are you doing?

587

: 00:29:43

It's not who they are.

588

: 00:29:45

It's just an action of what they did,

so you need to look at the action

589

: 00:29:49

and know that they're good inside.

590

: 00:29:51

Oh, okay.

591

: 00:29:52

I mean you say that's for children,

but it's also for Everyone, right?

592

: 00:29:57

Yeah, we all react to something.

593

: 00:29:59

Something has happened to make us act

this way, and I think I'm going a little

594

: 00:30:04

off topic, but I think If we were to

look at people and recognize you're doing

595

: 00:30:11

this for some reason, unbeknownst to

me, you know, you're hurt or something

596

: 00:30:16

and not label them as bad or wrong.

597

: 00:30:19

The action may be bad, but everybody

from the moment you're born.

598

: 00:30:23

Everyone has goodness inside you.

599

: 00:30:26

And I think we just need to look at

the world as everyone is good inside.

600

: 00:30:30

Maybe some are making bad choices.

601

: 00:30:32

There's a reason for that.

602

: 00:30:34

And let's not label them as bad.

603

: 00:30:37

You can understand that the

choice is bad, but how do we,

604

: 00:30:41

is there a way we can help them?

605

: 00:30:43

Um, maybe not.

606

: 00:30:45

Maybe it's simple as giving them a smile

or just letting them have their space

607

: 00:30:49

because they're going through something.

608

: 00:30:52

Yeah.

609

: 00:30:52

Um, but.

610

: 00:30:54

There was, going back to people

pleasing, there was one TED Talk I saw

611

: 00:31:00

and I think this was my turning point.

612

: 00:31:02

Oh.

613

: 00:31:02

I remember my kids were small at the time,

so I was a mom when I saw it and it was

614

: 00:31:09

by Sarah Knight and it was a TED Talk

called "The Magic of Not Giving a Fuck."

615

: 00:31:14

Amazing.

616

: 00:31:15

I will link it and I can't wait to also

watch this later and hear about it now.

617

: 00:31:19

Yes, so she basically says, you

have only so many fucks to get

618

: 00:31:25

and You don't need to worry.

619

: 00:31:27

So you get invited to a baby shower that

you don't want to go to - just say no

620

: 00:31:32

and that's okay That's not being rude.

621

: 00:31:35

No, thank you You don't even have to

make up a lie No I'm just not going

622

: 00:31:40

and you take that and give it away

and it was just very much if you

623

: 00:31:46

don't want to do it, It's okay, it is

624

: 00:31:53

Every people pleaser is like I know I'm

comfortable in their seat right now And

625

: 00:31:59

so I I took that and there were a couple

things I remember that I got invited

626

: 00:32:04

to and I just like You know, I don't

have anything else going on that day,

627

: 00:32:08

but that's not where I want to spend my

energy Yeah, and I kind of sugarcoated.

628

: 00:32:14

My response would be I'm so bummed

to miss this I hope you have fun.

629

: 00:32:18

That's it.

630

: 00:32:19

Yeah, I don't need to lie I don't

need to say, Oh, I already have plans.

631

: 00:32:23

Nope, just yeah, not going to be there.

632

: 00:32:26

Yeah.

633

: 00:32:26

I don't have to over explain

yourself, which is definitely a

634

: 00:32:29

secret covert people pleasing trap.

635

: 00:32:32

We're explaining your no's.

636

: 00:32:33

Absolutely.

637

: 00:32:34

Yep.

638

: 00:32:35

Yep.

639

: 00:32:35

What does she say about giving a fuck?

640

: 00:32:37

Does she say like save

it for important stuff?

641

: 00:32:40

Yes.

642

: 00:32:41

Yeah.

643

: 00:32:41

She basically says you

only have so many to give.

644

: 00:32:44

, boss tells you to stay late at work.

645

: 00:32:46

That's past your whatever.

646

: 00:32:49

and let it go.

647

: 00:32:50

You don't need to worry about it anymore.

648

: 00:32:52

That's huge.

649

: 00:32:53

I think I need to watch this.

650

: 00:32:54

I know.

651

: 00:32:55

I know.

652

: 00:32:55

I was like, as I'm like recalling, I

was like, I need to watch it because

653

: 00:32:58

she says it way better than I do.

654

: 00:33:00

That reminds me, and I've mentioned this

in other episodes, where I'll see memes or

655

: 00:33:04

like people pleasers in their villain era.

656

: 00:33:07

They're like, no, you feel like an

evil villain because you've rejected an

657

: 00:33:12

invitation or you told somebody, no.

658

: 00:33:14

It's so funny that internally

that makes us feel like we're

659

: 00:33:17

the villain in someone's story

660

: 00:33:20

when really you're not.

661

: 00:33:21

You just said no.

662

: 00:33:22

You're not and if you think about it,

if you do go because you feel bad or

663

: 00:33:27

you just feel like you have to say Yes,

are you bringing your best self there?

664

: 00:33:30

True.

665

: 00:33:31

Maybe you show up and you're the villain

because you're in a bad mood because

666

: 00:33:34

you really don't want to be there.

667

: 00:33:37

And then I also try to think as well,

if I'm inviting someone to go somewhere

668

: 00:33:41

or do something with me, I don't

want them to feel guilty and attend.

669

: 00:33:46

I want someone there because they want to

be there and if they don't, okay, fine.

670

: 00:33:49

But yeah, so I don't want

to do that to someone else.

671

: 00:33:52

Exactly.

672

: 00:33:53

I don't want someone

there like fake happy.

673

: 00:33:55

Right, exactly.

674

: 00:33:56

I want someone to really be

there because they want to be.

675

: 00:33:59

Yeah.

676

: 00:34:01

You have a special circumstance

with people pleasing that I

677

: 00:34:04

would love for you to share.

678

: 00:34:05

And that's because we are

in the midst of an author.

679

: 00:34:08

You wrote a book, which

is so freaking awesome.

680

: 00:34:12

I can't wait to read it.

681

: 00:34:14

Yay!

682

: 00:34:14

Oh my gosh, so first of all, I'd

love to hear about the book, like

683

: 00:34:18

what inspired you to write it.

684

: 00:34:19

And then also I know that you want

to talk a little bit about the

685

: 00:34:22

process because it's nonfiction.

686

: 00:34:24

It's about your life.

687

: 00:34:25

Yes.

688

: 00:34:26

To me, this is one badass level of

people pleaser recovery, writing a

689

: 00:34:30

story that involves people in your life.

690

: 00:34:34

Yes.

691

: 00:34:35

A memoir, essentially.

692

: 00:34:36

So, yeah, I would love for you to share

a little bit about the book and then we

693

: 00:34:40

can dive into the people pleasing part.

694

: 00:34:42

Yeah, absolutely.

695

: 00:34:43

Thank you.

696

: 00:34:43

That's the first time someone

has called me an author.

697

: 00:34:47

That's really cool.

698

: 00:34:49

Um, the book is, I haven't

spoke about this, but I lost

699

: 00:34:52

my brother to suicide in 2009.

700

: 00:34:56

And that's when I guess I did a lot of

self work and introspect and learning

701

: 00:35:03

about mental health and all that.

702

: 00:35:05

After my true in depth grieving

process, and in conjunction with

703

: 00:35:11

becoming a mom, so let me back up.

704

: 00:35:13

I lost my brother in 2009, right

before I was getting married.

705

: 00:35:17

I got married that summer, and

within a year I was pregnant.

706

: 00:35:22

Oh, wow.

707

: 00:35:22

Yeah.

708

: 00:35:23

So, there were a lot of emotions going on.

709

: 00:35:26

Mm hmm.

710

: 00:35:28

Once I had my baby girl in my arms

and this new love came, I just became

711

: 00:35:34

very protective of her and thought

of my brother a lot who suffered

712

: 00:35:38

from mental illness and I thought,

what can I do to make sure this never

713

: 00:35:43

happens to this baby in my arms?

714

: 00:35:44

Oh, yeah.

715

: 00:35:45

And so I, I did a lot of work on myself.

716

: 00:35:48

Learning like how to be

the best parent I can be.

717

: 00:35:51

So the book talks about me losing him.

718

: 00:35:55

Um, our family losing him.

719

: 00:35:57

Kind of our life leading up to that.

720

: 00:35:59

I mentioned briefly about the divorce.

721

: 00:36:01

So there was a rocky childhood.

722

: 00:36:03

and then how my life shifted when I

became a mom and these lessons that I

723

: 00:36:08

have learned that I try to teach my girls.

724

: 00:36:11

So that they can be kind people

and we can just pour more kindness

725

: 00:36:17

into this world ,So we don't

lose Justins any more Justins.

726

: 00:36:22

And I yeah, that's amazing Thank you.

727

: 00:36:25

I know I my book is not

going to solve Depression.

728

: 00:36:29

It's not going to literally

save someone's life.

729

: 00:36:33

I used to get, feel very daunted by that.

730

: 00:36:35

Like, what can I do?

731

: 00:36:37

I can't change the world.

732

: 00:36:38

I can't save someone.

733

: 00:36:40

But instead of thinking about that, I've

changed my thinking or my perspective

734

: 00:36:45

to just do little things every day.

735

: 00:36:47

Just try to be kind every day.

736

: 00:36:50

And that is enough.

737

: 00:36:51

I love that you just said that's enough.

738

: 00:36:53

Yes.

739

: 00:36:54

That is enough.

740

: 00:36:55

You don't have to keep

pushing and pushing.

741

: 00:36:57

Right.

742

: 00:36:57

Um, so in my book, I outline the lessons

I've learned and those lessons that I'm

743

: 00:37:03

instilling in my daughters so that it

has a trickle effect so that they're kind

744

: 00:37:07

or they show up their best versions of

themselves that hopefully touch their

745

: 00:37:11

friends that touches their friends.

746

: 00:37:12

And everyone in our, community, if

you can do one good thing to help

747

: 00:37:17

change someone's day, you don't know

what kind of effect that may be.

748

: 00:37:21

It's true.

749

: 00:37:22

so that's what the book is about.

750

: 00:37:24

but like I said in the beginning,

I speak about losing my brother and

751

: 00:37:29

my childhood leading up to that.

752

: 00:37:31

And that was very, very hard.

753

: 00:37:33

Oh, I can imagine.

754

: 00:37:34

Because.

755

: 00:37:35

I love my parents.

756

: 00:37:36

They're great parents.

757

: 00:37:37

I'm constantly reminded that they

did the best with what they had.

758

: 00:37:41

It was Rocky and I share some

of those stories and I remember

759

: 00:37:46

writing it and deleting it.

760

: 00:37:48

Just like, you know, you know,

this is my story, but I feel bad.

761

: 00:37:53

I feel like I'm kind of outing them.

762

: 00:37:56

And then I was listening to my favorite

podcast, Armchair Expert, and , Dax

763

: 00:37:59

Shepard speaks about how he was kind

of in the same situation when he was

764

: 00:38:03

speaking about his life and he felt

bad Because his mom was painted in

765

: 00:38:07

this picture of whatever, a mistake.

766

: 00:38:10

And she called him and she

said, no, that's your story.

767

: 00:38:14

Wow.

768

: 00:38:14

You're allowed to tell it.

769

: 00:38:16

And so that really stuck

with me as I wrote.

770

: 00:38:20

And I stopped deleting.

771

: 00:38:21

I was like.

772

: 00:38:22

You know, I don't know what

my dad was going through.

773

: 00:38:25

My mom was going through we all were

going through our own true issues

774

: 00:38:29

as we lived through this divorce.

775

: 00:38:31

But I know what I was going through

and it's okay to speak about

776

: 00:38:34

it to own your story to own it

because I had those experiences.

777

: 00:38:39

It's made me who I am today.

778

: 00:38:41

Yeah.

779

: 00:38:42

And so I think it's important

to know the backstory.

780

: 00:38:45

Wow, that's phenomenal.

781

: 00:38:47

Thanks.

782

: 00:38:48

So writing, I'm sure in its own

way was its own form of therapy.

783

: 00:38:53

I'm assuming as you're writing you,

well, clearly you worked through things.

784

: 00:38:57

Yes.

785

: 00:38:58

Worked through a lot.

786

: 00:38:59

Um, cried a lot.

787

: 00:39:01

I actually opened the story by saying,

so when my brother first passed away, my

788

: 00:39:05

sister is a child psychologist and She

told me you need to write just write it

789

: 00:39:10

down like she was very into journaling.

790

: 00:39:12

I never was, but when I lost Justin,

I did feel the urge to journal and It

791

: 00:39:18

may have been a few months That that

journal went on from you know, shortly

792

: 00:39:22

after I lost him to a few months

later and I stopped journaling I put

793

: 00:39:27

that journal away forgot about it.`

794

: 00:39:29

And then when I decided like I want

to tell my story I want to write

795

: 00:39:32

a book I broke out that journal.

796

: 00:39:34

Oh, wow, and I read it and I was

like, this needs to be told.

797

: 00:39:39

What made you decide to start writing it?

798

: 00:39:41

It was, first of all, props to my

husband, he's the one who said, you need

799

: 00:39:46

to write this, you need to write this.

800

: 00:39:47

So every year on the anniversary

of Justin's death, I felt compelled

801

: 00:39:52

to write a Facebook post, that's

how I communicated, about the

802

: 00:39:56

stigma attached to suicide.

803

: 00:39:58

Oh, yeah.

804

: 00:39:58

I hated that I was ashamed

of it when we first lost him, I

805

: 00:40:02

didn't want to tell anyone how he

had died because I was ashamed.

806

: 00:40:05

I thought it was wrong.

807

: 00:40:07

You know, it's not a choice.

808

: 00:40:09

It was his mental health.

809

: 00:40:10

I explained to my kids, it's

just like your body being sick.

810

: 00:40:13

We wouldn't be mad at

someone who died of cancer.

811

: 00:40:15

His brain was sick.

812

: 00:40:16

We can't be mad.

813

: 00:40:17

It was not a choice.

814

: 00:40:19

So each year I would do that and I

noticed that people would come up to

815

: 00:40:24

me and share their stories or say I

know someone who's struggling and I

816

: 00:40:28

just felt like we're erasing the stigma

the more we talk about it and the more

817

: 00:40:33

I put it out there, the more people

it reaches and they know it's okay.

818

: 00:40:37

It's okay if they're struggling

that they can talk to someone.

819

: 00:40:41

Yeah, absolutely.

820

: 00:40:43

Hats off to you because you're right,

that is a very sensitive topic, so

821

: 00:40:46

having so many layers to this, you're

sharing your story, you're owning that,

822

: 00:40:51

so like, people, please, a recovery,

then tackling a topic in society

823

: 00:40:56

that does have like you said, hidden

shame and trauma involved with it.

824

: 00:41:01

That is so brave of you.

825

: 00:41:02

Thank you.

826

: 00:41:03

What is the title of your book?

827

: 00:41:05

It's called All In.

828

: 00:41:07

And the reason behind that title

is my brother was a big poker

829

: 00:41:11

player and he played Texas Hold'em.

830

: 00:41:14

He even went to the

tournament in Las Vegas.

831

: 00:41:17

Oh, wow.

832

: 00:41:17

Yes.

833

: 00:41:18

And.

834

: 00:41:19

We got to go and watch him and my

dad and my sister were at the pool.

835

: 00:41:24

They just, you know, you watch and

they're just playing hand after

836

: 00:41:26

hand and it's kind of boring.

837

: 00:41:28

We would like go watch him and then we

go to the pool and come back and forth.

838

: 00:41:31

I decided to stay for a few extra minutes.

839

: 00:41:33

And I watched my brother, he

got a hand and he put all his

840

: 00:41:37

chips in and it was day one.

841

: 00:41:39

So this is it.

842

: 00:41:41

He puts all his chips

in and you say I'm all in.

843

: 00:41:43

And so if he loses, he's out.

844

: 00:41:45

The three day tournament is done.

845

: 00:41:47

And I was like, Oh my

gosh, what are you doing?

846

: 00:41:49

And, uh, he kind of looked

up at me and gave me a grin.

847

: 00:41:52

I was like, you better, you

better have some good cards there.

848

: 00:41:55

And they even called like the producers

over the camera came over cause

849

: 00:41:58

this was going to be a big moment.

850

: 00:42:00

And they flipped the cards.

851

: 00:42:01

and he won.

852

: 00:42:02

He had gotten so much in that pot of

money or chips, he left the table.

853

: 00:42:07

He's like, I'm going to go take a break.

854

: 00:42:08

I'm going to go swim at the

pool because it didn't matter.

855

: 00:42:10

He had made his pot so big.

856

: 00:42:12

Wow.

857

: 00:42:13

So that inspired me of that's

how we need to live our lives.

858

: 00:42:16

Yeah.

859

: 00:42:17

We need to be all in.

860

: 00:42:19

We need to love ourselves

unconditionally so that we can

861

: 00:42:23

pour that love out to others.

862

: 00:42:25

you do that by being all in by

being all in and vulnerability,

863

: 00:42:29

which is why I'm sharing this story.

864

: 00:42:32

Yeah.

865

: 00:42:32

Um, being all in with grace, which is

giving yourself grace when you make

866

: 00:42:38

mistakes so that you can also give grace

to others and find it easy to give grace

867

: 00:42:43

to others because you know that you

make mistakes and it's going to be okay.

868

: 00:42:47

And so you need to allow that for others.

869

: 00:42:50

And then another big one was, which is

my biggest one, is paying attention.

870

: 00:42:54

So I think a lot of us spend our lives

on our phones, scrolling, whatever.

871

: 00:43:01

And you miss the little things.

872

: 00:43:03

You miss maybe holding the door

for someone who's having a hard

873

: 00:43:06

time or you miss the look on a co

worker's face or the tone in their

874

: 00:43:10

voice when they say, Oh, I'm fine.

875

: 00:43:12

You know, you miss that opportunity

to say, is everything okay?

876

: 00:43:16

, So being all in on paying attention.

877

: 00:43:18

Being present in this world.

878

: 00:43:20

Yes.

879

: 00:43:20

And not just going

through life on autopilot.

880

: 00:43:23

Correct.

881

: 00:43:24

Yeah.

882

: 00:43:25

I want to circle back at the

beginning, you'd said, I know this

883

: 00:43:27

isn't going to save anyone's life,

but honestly, it sounds that you've

884

: 00:43:31

poured your heart and soul into this.

885

: 00:43:33

You're being authentic and real.

886

: 00:43:35

And I beg to differ.

887

: 00:43:37

I think that you never know how

your story will impact someone.

888

: 00:43:42

So thank you for being brave and

vulnerable and telling your story so

889

: 00:43:47

that others may learn from it, that's

huge, because I know you were saying

890

: 00:43:51

about being present in the world, but

I think this is what people need, too.

891

: 00:43:54

Authenticity.

892

: 00:43:55

They need to live authentically and

be honest and real with each other.

893

: 00:44:00

And that's how we all feel safe to

begin our own healing journey, too.

894

: 00:44:04

Absolutely, yeah.

895

: 00:44:06

How can people purchase

and read your book?

896

: 00:44:09

You can get it on Amazon.

897

: 00:44:10

com, or you can go through the

publisher's website , No Frills Buffalo.

898

: 00:44:15

I love that.

899

: 00:44:16

No Frills Buffalo.

900

: 00:44:16

Cool.

901

: 00:44:17

It's great.

902

: 00:44:17

Awesome.

903

: 00:44:18

Okay, that's all in the

show notes, everyone.

904

: 00:44:20

And again, what is the title?

905

: 00:44:21

Just so people can Yep.

906

: 00:44:23

All In, Lessons Learned Through

the Loss of a Beautiful Life.

907

: 00:44:26

Oh, I love that.

908

: 00:44:28

Thank you so much for that.

909

: 00:44:30

Yes.

910

: 00:44:30

Thank you.

911

: 00:44:32

I love to end my podcast with everyone

sharing their bumper sticker quote.

912

: 00:44:38

As a recovering people pleaser, what

would you have on a bumper sticker

913

: 00:44:41

on your car cruising through Buffalo?

914

: 00:44:43

Okay.

915

: 00:44:44

I have to tell you when I listened

to your one of your episodes and

916

: 00:44:47

this question came up, I was like,

Oh my gosh, what's mine going to be?

917

: 00:44:51

And , you know, it really

stressed me out for a second.

918

: 00:44:53

And then it hit me.

919

: 00:44:54

I was like, of course it's this.

920

: 00:44:55

I go by this, if it's not a

hell yes, then it's a hell no.

921

: 00:44:59

Oh, yeah.

922

: 00:45:01

Have you heard that one yet?

923

: 00:45:02

No, no one has said

that yet on the podcast.

924

: 00:45:04

No, that's perfect.

925

: 00:45:06

I told that to my one friend who's also

a people pleaser and she's like, I need

926

: 00:45:09

to like have that tattooed on my wrist.

927

: 00:45:11

Like hell yes on one or

hell no on the other.

928

: 00:45:15

It's like the people pleaser's

version of the magic eight ball.

929

: 00:45:18

Is this a hell yes or a hell no?

930

: 00:45:19

Exactly, exactly.

931

: 00:45:21

I love that so much.

932

: 00:45:23

Oh my gosh, it's so true.

933

: 00:45:24

Giving yourself permission to not be wishy

washy, is that a hell yeah or a hell no?

934

: 00:45:28

Right.

935

: 00:45:28

Which one is it?

936

: 00:45:29

Right.

937

: 00:45:30

If you're excited, like, if that

makes you feel good, then yes.

938

: 00:45:33

If you question it, you

know, then it's a no.

939

: 00:45:37

Mm hmm.

940

: 00:45:37

I love that.

941

: 00:45:39

Thank you so much for being

here Thank you for having me.

942

: 00:45:41

I appreciate you coming on the show

and sharing your story and Again,

943

: 00:45:46

everyone, please check out her book.

944

: 00:45:48

It's linked in the show notes.

945

: 00:45:49

Thanks everyone